UnderGround Forums
 

Jen >> Bench press style pin escapes....


1/25/09 1:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5629
 
After a very long time, I have finally put up a video clip of the bench press style pin escapes being done. Here's a video of my 4 year old son, Derek, doing escapes from N/S on his 3 year old brother, Aaron.

For the nay sayers, no, Derek has not done his escapes on the latest world champion.

In all seriousness, notice the angle changes and arm placement, in addition to the fact that there is no bridging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUOXL88DOaM
1/25/09 9:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
slo ko
440 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/4/03
Posts: 766
 cool to see such coordination at that age. well done.
1/25/09 9:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/25/09 9:40 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5631
The cool thing is that I never gave him any instruction on how to escape that position. I just put him there to see what he would do and suddenly he just started to do legit technique. No power bridging or wild thrashing. I was so amazed that I had to get the video camera and film it.

The cornerstone of the foundation I am building for my children is the development of their physical attributes as well as mental attributes such as coordination, body awareness, etc.... I believe my boys understood how to escape with "technique" because I have done things to have them innately understand what is biomechanically strong and weak.

The best example of this innate understanding of leverage can be seen in their rock climbing. When they both started, they both looked like scared cats hanging on a screen door. Over time, they both started to climb with great technique, especially, the older one, Derek. That innate sense of body control and leverage really came out in Derek as he started to develop "technique" when rock climbing even though he has never had any instruction. He innnately started to do things that I had to take lessons to learn. Even the employees at the climbing place were surprised at how technical his climbing was. I have old footage of him climbing on youtube.com, but I need to film him again because it looks very different now.

To be honest, sometimes when I am trying to figure out a solution to a problem in BJJ, I may put my sons in those positions to see what they do. There have been times in which their movements gave me an idea that ends up developing into something.

This type of training in which I bring out what is naturally in them has really had me look at teaching very young kids in a different light.
1/25/09 9:56 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
slo ko
440 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/4/03
Posts: 773
 your approach to their training reminds me of Renzo Gracie's own. did you see the bonus featurette that came with The Smashing Machine DVD? at the beginning it shows Renzo at home discussing how he incorporates jiu-jitsu into his children's play so that it will be natural for them.

To be honest, sometimes when I am trying to figure out a solution to a problem in BJJ, I may put my sons in those positions to see what they do. There have been times in which their movements gave me an idea that ends up developing into something.

I found that statement to be very interesting.

1/25/09 10:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/26/09 12:53 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5632
I actually haven't incorporated BJJ into their play. I just have them do a lot of different activities, especially those involving natural movements.

One thing I have done to teach my kids not to bridge is that I will pin them and give them a little bit of room to escape. There is no way they are going to move me with their bridge, so they have learned move there bodies away from me rather than try to move me.

We all have been conditioned to look at a problem in BJJ in a certain way. My kids haven't been conditioned by any way yet, so their perspective is fresh. Sometimes I just need a fresh perspective. Interestingly, each of my boys offers a different perspective.

If you look at Derek's escape, you see that his arms are always doing a pushing action and he is always eventually pushing at a decline angle. You also see he understands when he should push with his hands versus using his forearm. His N/S escape is essentially pushing his brother back to side control. He also does his escape on the side in which his brother either has the most weight or where the weight is driving towards.
1/26/09 5:26 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cdog1955
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 917
Thats awesome!

looks like they are having a blast.
1/27/09 5:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5633
What noticed is that my oldest son, Derek, is more of a natural on the bottom. However, my youngest son is much more of a natural on top. Aaron's pinning and mount is much stronger and he has much more tenacity to keep fighting to maintain the position. Derek just lays on top like a limp noodle.
1/31/09 1:03 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/31/09 2:35 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5636
The movements my son is doing is surprising similar to what Joe Moreira does. When I showed Joe this video, he e-mailed me to me, "Veri good. He be my next champion." I thought it was funny as hell that Joe actually types the same way that he speaks. :)

The story behind the evolution of my own personal pin escape system is very interesting.......

When I was brown belt, I decided that I really needed to focus on pin escapes as I got closer to black belt. I felt that once I got to black belt there was no way I was going to allow some big ass beginner pin me down and not be able to get out. The pin escapes I used at that time were a mix of things from previous instructors, things that Joe taught me, and things that I figured out on my own. These escapes worked well on lower and mid level practitioners, I had to really work hard to escape on people my own skill level and a bit higher, but they didn't work on people like Joe Moreira's skill level.

One day, I saw Joe Moreira allow one of my former instructors to pin him 100%. Joe escaped in seconds and threw him off like a child over and over. I was in awe as I had never seen anything like this. At that time, I asked this former instructor how Joe was able to escape so easily and the response I got was, "He just really strong". I didn't think this was true as Joe really made it look effortless and did not appear like he was using strength.

When I asked Joe if I could pin him and have him do his escapes live on me, I then began to realize that Joe was doing something very different from what other instructors had taught me and also different from what he taught me. I joked around and called it "bench press style" because it felt like Joe was just bench pressing me off of him.

Later, I was eventually promoted to black belt. At that time, I had not seen or experienced anything as effective as what Joe was doing so I decided to scrap all that I had done and learned before, start from scratch, and do this thing that Joe does.

Joe did these pin escapes innately. He knew how to do it, but he didn't know exactly what he was doing it or how he was doing it. So I had to take a reverse engineering approach. I had to have him do it live on me and then I have to pick it apart and figure out what he was doing. This was a very slow and long process. It look a lot of time to figure out just a little bit. In the beginning, it was also a difficult and torturous process because I would try to apply what I had learned, but since I wasn't really good at it at first, I was getting crushed by the bigger guys. There were times in which I knew I could escape if I used one of my old techniques, but I refused to do so as I was determined to figure out how to escape based on this new system.

Years passed and eventually I got better at the system. I would say I was at a moderate level with the system, but escaping the pins of people of all levels became easier and easier. I even started to be able to escape the pins of very skilled black belts like Joe. In the past, I could escape Joe's pin 0% of the time. Once I began to use his system, I started to escape 60 - 70% of the time on Joe and I hadn't even "mastered" the system.

Eventually, I got to a higher level with this system and I felt that I really understood it. I eventually noticed that Joe started to take the mount on me a lot more instead of staying in side control. I felt very confident with my ability to escape pins. My students also started to get really good at the system. One of students rolled with a multiple time black belt world champ and escaped that guy's side control with ease (of course he later got tapped out from some other position). I had asked Joe if he knew how to shut down his own pin escape system. Besides a couple counters here and there, he also didn't have a solution because, at that time, no one else was doing that to him except me (maybe other people are doing it now, I don't know), so he never put thought into figuring out how to stop something that was never done to him. My students and I really didn't have much problem apply this system on other people, however, because we had been doing this system on each other for years, I noticed that it was progressively getting harder and harder to escape their pins. After many years, the students that I was once able to throw off like little girls started figure out how to stop what I was doing an began to have pins that felt like high level black belts.

There eventually came a day when the pinning of some of my blue and purple belts felt better than many higher level practitioners I had come across. At first, I didn't change anything because I had not come across any "outsider" who knew how to stop what we were doing, therefore, it wasn't worth to spend the time and energy to figure out to counter just my own students. However, as time passed, my ego couldn't handle the feeling of getting crushed by my blue and purple belts.

Then the pin escape system started to change from what I had learned from Joe Moreira. I really started to put my mind into how to counter my students' counters. Though the system was constantly evolving and improving, over the course of a couple years, the system went through 2 - 3 major and different evolutionary changes. My jiu-jitsu is constantly being tweaked and improved, but these evolutionary changes were big leaps in a different direction. Like in nature, not all evolutionary changes succeed and survive. Through a lot of testing and trial and error, the weakness in those evolutionary changes were exposed. Though these evolutionary changes did not stick, the whole process made me understand pin escaping better and better.

The biggest leap in a different direction occurred when began to use my MBF posture therapy principles to understand how pinning works on a much deeper level. Once I understood that, I began to understand much better the path I needed to take to improve the pin escape system. This then led to an evolutionary change that has stayed and now continues to improve and be built upon. One improvement actually came about from watching my my sons escape side control on each other (in a situation I did not film). My boys were doing something to each other and I experimented and built on that idea.

Though there are similarities to what Joe does due to fact that it evolved from Joe's system, the current system I now use has evolved into something that is different. But just as Joe figured out a system for himself innately, I get a kick out of the fact that my son innately started to do something very similar.
1/31/09 7:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/31/09 7:11 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5640
I am now offering courses on this material (the next one being in on the third weekend of Feb.), however, to be honest, the way that my system and Joe's system works, I find that it is not really suitable for about 95% of BJJ practitioners out there. It is not unsuitable from a physical stand point, but rather it is unsuitable from a mental training stand point. I have found that most people are not willing to put in the consistent and constant effort required to get good at a system, especially if that means they need to change old habits. As soon as most people hit a problem rather than figuring out the solution within the confines of the system's principles, most people tend to want to look for a solution outside the system. That's why technique collecting is so popular in BJJ.

Like I mentioned in earlier, I was eventually able to get good at Joe's system because I forced myself to use it and stay within the system even when I was suffering under a pin and another solution seemed easier at the time. I personally believe people that most people are unwilling to endure such discomfort and mental frustration as the thought of "winning" tends to surpass the desire to get good at a specific task.

Though what I do now has deviated from Joe's system, the determination to initially get good at Joe's system created and instilled a sense of discipline that I did not have in the past.
5/29/09 12:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ausgepicht
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 37631
Watching your kids was a real treat. That was fun.

Using posts to create a wedge and break the seal is how I would describe that. With the pin a seal is created, and with that seal comes control. For someone to escape they need to create a wedge. A wedge creates space, taking back some control, and allowing one to work an escape. Posts are one way to create a wedge.

Of course, WHERE you post and how you face your "opponent" are a few of many other factors. Posting into his triangle point (break of base/balance) will effect a roll or allow you to shrimp to guard. You will notice the son on the bottom gets his guard or an escape when he nails the top son's triangle point.

Thanks for sharing.

5/29/09 11:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5835
One of these days, I would really like to get together with Joe and share ideas on our respective systems and compare notes. I would be extremely curious to see how he would deal with my current method of pinning and deal with the postural deviations that I would put on his body.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.