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UnderGround Forums >> japanese has developped Judo for a reason


2/1/09 4:02 PM
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jujubre
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Edited: 02/01/09 4:02 PM
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the japanese have been doing MMA for century...they have chosen to develop Judo for a reason. if jigaro Kano has decided to put the ground work on the side and put an emphasis on takedown it is because after years of developping the art he had understood in which part you can do the difference.

and unfortunately grappling work but it is far from being the most important part of MMA...takedown and ground control (pin) is what gave you the win and it is the emphasis of Judo...

that is why Judo has won all his challenge against japanese Jiujutsu in it the beguinning of the XXcentury


I hate to admit but I am starting to believe that Trainjudo was not a troll but was really trying to make us see the light for all this year....
2/1/09 4:05 PM
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jujubre
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Judo and karaté is the grall of MMA


ps : Jean Marie merchet one of the best french Muy Teacher (team Haute tension) said 3 years ago that he was training his MMA fighter to KArate because the stance was more adaptable to MMA...I was thinking he was bullshitting but I have to say that it seems he was correct too (see GSP, Machida and liddel)
2/1/09 4:13 PM
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TrainJudo
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Kano believed that it was easier to to get good at ne-waza and was much harder to be technical on your feet..

This is why he made his guys focus more on standing.

The problem is, with the contest rules of sport judo the way they are today, it makes alot of guys spend 90% - 100% of their time training on their feet and finding ways to get back to their feet using the rules and the ref instead of honing ne-waza skill..Which fucked up the whole equation.

Anyone who dosn't see this, is blind.
2/1/09 4:24 PM
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jujubre
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Edited: 02/01/09 5:07 PM
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TrainJudo - Kano believed that it was easier to to get good at ne-waza and was much harder to be technical on your feet..

This is why he made his guys focus more on standing.



I have come to the same conclusion....so it is nice to train in BJJ but if you do not have strong standing takedown, all your training is gonna bring you nothing in a real fighting world (against an other skilled opponent)

take the best Bjjer in the world...if you want to learn him high level takedown, you will need 10 years.

Take the best judoka....if you want to learn him high level ground game (without a GI), you will need 9 months to one year (with a GI I have to admit it is different and they would need more time)
2/1/09 4:35 PM
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TrainJudo
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Edited: 02/01/09 4:37 PM
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Well that is the thing..MMA is fought in a padded arena, so the throws don't do real world damage..Can you imagine if Kimura vs. Helio had been on concrete?

No need for ude garami. The Kimura wouldn't be an armlock, it would be an o soto gari causing brain damage..

Kato too would have beaten Helio. He threw him so hard on his head it is crazy. But again, they had a soft landing surface (and the ropes) to break his falls.

Why do you think old BJJ fights happened on beaches? You guessed it!! Now they did fight a couple on tile, but not against good judoka..Usually kung fu guys that they could use their judo against. It was to their benefit in those cases, so, they allowed it.

Kimura himself remarked at how padded the floor was in his Match with Helio and that his throws had no effect on him because of it..In "My Judo"   
2/1/09 4:39 PM
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BUFFGEO
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.
2/1/09 4:47 PM
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TrainJudo
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"Kato was in good condition, and threw Helio a number of times. However, past 15 minute mark, I started to see frustration in Kato's face. The throws had no damage on Helio since the mat was soft."

"The gong rang. Helio grabbed me in both lapels, and attacked me with O-soto-gari and Kouchi-gari. But they did not move me at all. Now it's my turn. I blew him away up in the air by O-uchi-gari, Harai-goshi, Uchimata, Ippon-seoi. At about 10 minute mark, I threw him by O-soto-gari. I intended to cause a concussion. But since the mat was so soft that it did not have much impact on him."


The words of Kimura himself.
2/1/09 4:47 PM
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chooy721
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I remember watching a street fight in Korea. Two drunk dudes sizing each other up. One was doing all the tekwondo kicks and such and thiefat,short, squatty dude was just eating them up. When the TKD guy got in close...hip toss(don't know the judo throw names sorry)...splat...lights out. Was quite amazing really.

TKD dude's head met the concrete really hard, really fast.

I laughed and ran off to drink more soju. Fun night
2/1/09 4:49 PM
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chooy721
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Judo is a beautiful art. So is wrestling, boxing, muay thai, MMA, BJJ, TKD, Karate, wu shu.. I like them all for what they are. Some have more real world application then others. None are the end all be all of martial arts. The arguments about this style is better than that get really old.
2/1/09 4:50 PM
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jujubre
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Edited: 02/01/09 4:53 PM
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Z guard - Karo vs Dong was a glorified no-gi tripping contest.



both of them would dominate 98% of the whole BJJ world with their "tripping contest" skill and some ground training in a MMA fight....(if the BJJer they fight again have worst takedown than them that is almors sure) just think about it!

the BJJer if his takedown sucks always finish on the bottom and the guard sucks with sweat and without gi...see the serra GSP, Penn GSP, Hermes Sherk fight for reference.all this Bjjer are supposed to have amasing guard but with just strong pin and ground countrol they looked completely lost


the only Bjjer that is able to use his BJJ without a GI and without takedown skill at High level is Damian Maia but when he will fight the best in the division I am affraid he will come short unfortunately.

I was the biggest BJJ fan but I am starting to see the light...who I am to think that I understand better fighting than Kano that had studied the art for 30 years before deciding to put an emphasis on takedown techniques instead of ground one
2/1/09 4:54 PM
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TrainJudo
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Edited: 02/01/09 5:06 PM
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Now something you will also see if you read "My judo" by Kimura is that he finds out that the way to win in fights like these (those on padded surfaces where throws dont do the damage they are intended to) is to throw and finish in ne-waza...

So BJJ is not really street fighting art..It is a ring art. An art formed upon fighting in controlled situations with softened landing surfaces..Thus, the concentration on ne-waza (since throws don't do the damage that they normally would)..He who is best on the ground (ne-waza) usually wins because the effects of the throw are negated by the fighting surface...

  I believe Helio knew this. I also believe it was why he was so adament that BJJ wasn't "GJJ"..."GJJ" was for self defense..And if you look at the self defense of "GJJ", it is much closer to judo.

 That is the truth..

 And remember, even if 70% of fights end up on the ground..100% start from your feet.    
2/1/09 4:59 PM
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hubris
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great thread

lots of great info here
2/1/09 5:53 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Kimuras book is awesome, it's made out of 100% pure win. you really get a feel for someone completely obsessed with his art.

he names every technique in every combination he used in every match or streetfight he was in from about the age 9. he gives a running tally of how many push up he does every day at various points in his life. completely obsessed.

the only thing that tops it is Dan Gables interview following the Munich Massacre at the 72 Olympics.

"Were you scared?"

"Yeah, I was scared, but then i managed to get that takedown and I was ahead by one."

major terrorist attck going on right next door, and he's completely oblivious, only concerned with winning.
2/1/09 6:13 PM
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JayRob
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Here are a couple of great videos of Kimura.

Techniques:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVE82gH-v-g

A documentary of a western student of his.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw

Looking back, I wished I would have stuck with Judo, then gone to BJJ.
2/1/09 6:16 PM
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jujubre
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JayRob - 

Looking back, I wished I would have stuck with Judo, then gone to BJJ.



me too....
2/1/09 6:34 PM
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Açaí
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True, from a real life street standpoint, you'd rather have Judo in your pocket then just pure newaza
2/1/09 7:15 PM
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Unseen
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 ttt
2/1/09 7:31 PM
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fokket
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Hopefully this will make a Judoka happy.


 In Korea, violent crimes are dealt by specialized detective, they are called 'hard-crime detectives'

These are tough son of bitches and they love to fight hand to hand.

Their most preferred martial art? somewhat Hybrid, but it is Judo based.

2/1/09 7:52 PM
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fishluv
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i love judo but hate the rules
2/1/09 8:01 PM
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big fatso
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BJJ is dead
2/2/09 1:52 AM
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jujubre
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if I had writted this thread 3 years ago, I would have been fucked up (and one of the one doing the protestating would have been me).

it seems more and more people are seing the light.
2/2/09 3:53 AM
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melvinferd
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i live real close to the kodokan in tokyo. actually about 5 mins away by bicycle. and i proudly dont train judo haha.
2/2/09 3:55 AM
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TrainJudo
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Yeah, you would never be any good at it..Good choice.
2/2/09 4:08 AM
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melvinferd
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huh! i thought it was the gentle art accessible to all?

now that judo is being accepted as an effective art, only the few are worthy?
2/2/09 4:13 AM
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TrainJudo
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Edited: 02/02/09 4:15 AM
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Judo is the maximum efficient use of physical and mental strength in order to attain a goal. That goal in your case would be to be a better man...Since you could never attain said goal due to your inability to be a man at all, it isn't efficient for you to even try.

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