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BJJGround Forum >> George Mehdi and non Gracie-lineage BJJ


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2/4/09 4:01 AM
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enemymaker
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I found this great intervie with Roberto Pedreira of Global Training Report

http://www.fusionbjj.com/robertointerview2.htm

It deal with the development of BJJ / Vale Tudo outside of the Gracie family. The book by Loddo seem AWESOME.


Daniel 'purosuco' Bertina / Carlson Gracie Team


---

Eddie: Who is the most interesting person you met in Brazil?

Roberto Pedreira: You can hardly meet anyone who isn't interesting in Brazil, but the most interesting person I met, I think I can say without much hesitation, was not completely a Brazilian, but only about half Brazilian. The other half was French. He was George Mehdi. I wrote about him on GTR. I guess he isn't as unknown as he was before, outside of Rio, in part due to that article, but still, he deserves to be known even more.

For example, there are people in Rio who say that Mehdi is the one who invented Gracie Jiu-jitsu, which he did by bringing Kosen judo ground techniques back to Brazil after his five year stay in Japan, where he trained with Kimura (who defeated Helio Gracie previously). Of course, his students who included Rickson Gracie and the Behring brothers and so many other jiu-jitsu guys, developed those techniques and added other elements from wrestling and sambo to make jiu-jitsu what it has become. But Mehdi was the ingredient that allowed it to happen. That's what some knowledgeable people think. (Of course, no one says he did it single-handedly or that he intended to do it, just that his knowledge of kosen ground techniques was a crucial catalyst in the process.)

Another most interesting Brazilian I met was Carlos Eduardo Loddo. He is a Brazilian researcher living in Canada who is writing a book about the true history of Jiu-Jitsu and Vale Tudo in Brazil. He found my Mehdi article and contacted me. He interviewed absolutely almost everyone in Brazil, over a period of the last about 25 years or more. His books should be coming out soon and maybe GTR will carry some excerpts. Just from what he has told me, I believe they will be the definitive treatments of these topics for a long time to come. It is sure to really shake up the MMA world.

As a hint, the version of Brazilian jiu-jitsu history we all know is the one Rorion Gracie wanted us to know. But it is just one version. There are many others in Brazil, and most of them don't agree with Rorion's.
2/4/09 4:12 AM
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PTM2020
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 wow.

that is very interesting.
2/4/09 4:21 AM
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enemymaker
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Another thing I remember reading about non Gracie lineage BJJ is about Ronaldo Jacare's instructor Henrique Machado (no relation to the Machado brothers). From what I understand, this Machado is a student of a mestre Fadda, who was another original student of Maeda's. Maeda traveled Brazil and had more students than just the original Gracie brothers. Also, there was a substantial Japanese colony in Brazil, so there's bound to have been Judoka teaching there.

I have always wondered when looking at old competition footage of gracies: WHO are they fighting in those old school BJJ competitions? Their own fellow students? If not, then there must have been OTHER bjj / judo school at the time.

Rules dictate behaviour, so it's possible that the competition between schools helped shape what we now know is BJJ.


Daniel / Carlson
2/4/09 6:11 AM
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sputniik
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Hell yeah...One of Nova Uniao's Co founders-Wendall Alexander is a student of fadda Linage.

Apparently there were a number of people who were taught from maeda....the gracies chose to spread it by challenge matches and street fighting tactics which saw the gracies become revered in brasil. The others...Ala Oswaldo Fadda etc, chose to teach behind closed doors and didnt really buy into the challenge matches/bad boy tactics.
2/4/09 8:45 AM
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Baroquen Record
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that is really interesting. i may have to read this book.
2/4/09 8:51 AM
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supersaiyan
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great THREAD TTT!!
2/4/09 9:13 AM
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esila
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Learning the history about the sport I love = TTT
2/4/09 9:21 AM
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deepu
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ttt
2/4/09 9:35 AM
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CJJScout
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Hmmm... more info?
2/4/09 10:07 AM
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AlliancePA
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I hope this book comes out some day. I have considered compliling a history of BJJ and including stories from all sides and lineages. I already have a pretty good collection of old interviews and history but it would take a lot of effort of compile it and expand on it. Some day I will do it if only for my own knowledge.
2/4/09 10:31 AM
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Faust
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I knew it
I have bought every DVD and book I could on Kosen judo and
I found out that Kosen judo had to be the basic foundation to Gracie Jiu Jitsu because there was to many of simular techs.
I have worked some of the Kosen techs into my own game with good success.
But let me say that the hole leverage ideal from helio has worked better for me.
2/4/09 10:33 AM
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Baroquen Record
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Faust - I knew it
I have bought every DVD and book I could on Kosen judo and
I found out that Kosen judo had to be the basic foundation to Gracie Jiu Jitsu because there was to many of simular techs.
I have worked some of the Kosen techs into my own game with good success.
But let me say that the hole leverage ideal from helio has worked better for me.


well it is common knowledge that the gracies learned from a kosen judo guy.
2/4/09 10:55 AM
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AlliancePA
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There is so much more Kosen judo that is applicable to sport BJJ than people realize. Helio disregarded a lot of these techniques because they didn't fit his mold of Jiu-Jitsu as a self defense for smaller people using leverage, etc. That is the reason why people from Fadda and Mehdi have always had some things that seemed different from guys who came from Helio's version. You have gotten a lot of these moves becoming more popular now that there is a greater shift from Gracie BJJ as Helio intended it to be and the sport BJJ created by Helio's and Carlos' sons.
2/4/09 10:57 AM
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None So Blind
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 ttt in case this book ever comes out ;-)
2/4/09 11:20 AM
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enemymaker
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Maybe the Faddo lineage also explains the stand-up prowess of Jacare and those other cats from Manaus.
2/4/09 11:26 AM
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sreiter
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Faust - 
But let me say that the hole leverage ideal from helio has worked better for me.



huh????

body mechanics are body mechanics

judos BASED on leverage

i've studied multiple MA's (such as silat) that ALL use the exact same "leverage" as BJJ

just more cool aid from rorian to try to make his dad more important then he is

if he did say helio brought leverage in, then helio is just teaching what carlos taught him
2/4/09 11:36 AM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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  A lever is the epitome of "maximum efficiency, minimum effort"
2/4/09 11:49 AM
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the rooster
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helio definitely emphasized pure efficiency and he also emphasized stripping down the sports applications...no inverted guards, etc.

His goal was also to have the weaker, non athletic type SURVIVE first and then if able, to win.

He was not a guy who was teaching a system of imposing your martial arts on someone and winning by any means (attributes, conditioning, etc.)

While you can have and be all those thing sand be very tough, Helio's commitment was to not lose. Period.

I have trained with both sides (don't lose/efficiency vs. win anyway you can baby) and there is something to be said for both.

You should train pure efficiency with no time limits to the tap and also train tournament style with points and submissions. Both develop crucial aspects to your game.
2/4/09 11:49 AM
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Urso
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Henrique Machado is a Black Belt in Judo under Mehdi.

Francisco "Chicão" Bueno is a Black Belt in judo under Mehdi.

Rickson was there only once.

Mehdi is Best friend of Isao Okano. Okano was in Rio de Janeiro for the World championship in 1965 and invited Mehdi to study Judo at Tenri University.

Mehdi ground game is unbeliaveble strong.Chokes and armlocks.

Mehdi is also a black belt in Aikido and Kendo.

In Tenri he trained with Anton Geesink and many others.
2/4/09 12:07 PM
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sreiter
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the rooster - helio definitely emphasized pure efficiency and he also emphasized stripping down the sports applications...no inverted guards, etc.

His goal was also to have the weaker, non athletic type SURVIVE first and then if able, to win.

He was not a guy who was teaching a system of imposing your martial arts on someone and winning by any means (attributes, conditioning, etc.)

While you can have and be all those thing sand be very tough, Helio's commitment was to not lose. Period.

I have trained with both sides (don't lose/efficiency vs. win anyway you can baby) and there is something to be said for both.

You should train pure efficiency with no time limits to the tap and also train tournament style with points and submissions. Both develop crucial aspects to your game.



and you know all this about helio how?
2/4/09 12:51 PM
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Hunter V
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SReiter has brought some correct to this thread. And there is no "kosen" judo. Kosen is just a set of rules that some university judo teams played by. It's all just JUDO, period. The unfortunate thing is that comp rules have made some of the groundwork in judo not as strong (its just not emphasized as much), so the kosen rules help keep that part of judo alive. But in the end, its all just old school judo.
2/4/09 1:10 PM
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Hunter V
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eh, I wouldn't say that. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu just took the old school judo they were shown and ran with it to make it into a very unique art. But still, it came from traditional judo. Its evolved into its own complete beast and a damn good one at that.
2/4/09 1:16 PM
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lautaro
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Several years ago when I heard about Helio using leverage-based techniques instead of the standard judo techniques that were taught, I was pretty puzzled. I asked instructors in those days what EXACTLY had been modified that was only now leverage-based (as opposed to what? using sheer muscle?). I never got any definitive answer, just vague responses. So I personally don't buy into that. Just my $0.02.

Lautaro
2/4/09 1:35 PM
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Faust
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sreiter - 
Faust - 
But let me say that the hole leverage ideal from helio has worked better for me.



huh????

body mechanics are body mechanics

judos BASED on leverage

i've studied multiple MA's (such as silat) that ALL use the exact same "leverage" as BJJ

just more cool aid from rorian to try to make his dad more important then he is

if he did say helio brought leverage in, then helio is just teaching what carlos taught him


I am not denying that judo is not based on leverage, of course it is, but many of the kosen ground techs seem to be more forceful vs how the gracies do them. There is less hip movement, less flow. An example is the kirmura done from the guard in lets say Mike Swain’s complete Judo set vs being shown personally by Royler Gracie at a seminar. Royler’s version used much more leverage and even more body mechanics then Mike’s version.
I am not saying one is better then the other BUT FOR ME, Again, BUT FOR ME, I found the way Royler did it to be easier and I have a greater success rate with it now.
Like I said, I have personally sought out the different techs between the two and for me I have worked in some of the old Kosen techs into my game with great success.
You could also argue that there are two Judos today. The Kudokan and the Kosen , one standing and the other has a ground emphases.
Its all good and celebrate the differences.
2/4/09 1:36 PM
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Hunter V
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Lautaro,

I figure he actually did add leverage to what he was taught at the time. Let me explain. It'd be like having say a 3 stripe white belt show how to do a move to a newbie vs having a high level blue or purple show the same move to the newbie. The 3 stripe white belt MIGHT make some bastardized version of the move work, but the newb would have to think there is a easier more efficient way of doing things. Often times, they will eventually figure this out if they stick with it long enough. If they had been under the tutelage of the high level blue or purple though, they would have learned the efficient, leverage based version of the same move.

To me, Helio probably learned the move when his brothers were still fairly new to the art and were not as smooth as what they would become. Therefore, when he found the efficiency and more leverage-based technical details, he assumed that the way he was originally shown and taught was the standard way of doing things. Hence the argument of him adding leverage and efficiency to a "rough" system. The system wasn't rough, its just that his teachers weren't as technical (as his brothers hadn't been training for years and years in the art to get to that level of technical proficiency) as they would later become. Its my theory, and hell I could be completely wrong but it seems logical to me. Just my $0.02.
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