UnderGround Forums
 

RugbyGround >> Northern Hemisphere competitions


2/4/09 9:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
seg
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/05
Posts: 7731
 
 I'm too lazy to figure this out on my own.  I'm well aware of the 6 Nations and how that works.  However, can someone concisely explain the Heineken Cup and the Guinness Premiership to me?


Which is more prestigious?  I've just started watching and have watched London Irish vs. Gloucester.  Is Peter Hewat on London Irish the same guy who used to play for NSW Waratahs?  He looks familiar. 

Is the Guinness competition more of a U.K. competition, and the Heineken Cup more of a European thing? 

It looks like the schedules are staggered so that the competitions are not going on at the same time, does that mean players play in both competitions for different teams, kind of like the New Zealand club teams which then roll over into the Super 14 with pretty much the same players?
2/5/09 3:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
fingers 'n' teeth
40 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9854
The guiness premiership is the English league. The English premiership. Its a tough league with a very physical style. It has a fair amount of money in it and thus a lot of foreign players. There are no welsh, scottish or irish team in this, its a soley English league.

The Magners league (also called the celtic league) is the Irish, welsh and scottish version of the Guiniess premiership. Standard is not as high as the Guiness premiership.

The Heiniken Cup is the most prestegious European tourney.
It contains the best performing teams of Ireland, scotland, england, France, wales and italy.
It plays simialr to the world cup where teams play group stages and then the best playoff in a KO tourney.

The organisation of the heiniken cup, Magners league, guiness premiership and the magners cup are all over the shop.

Guiness and mangers leagues go form sept to april. The Heiniken cup has a similar time frame and keeping up with which weekend has which games is kind of a chore. The have overlapping schedules.

However, players rarely if ever play for different teams in different competitions. A player is signed to a team and he stays there unless loaned.
2/5/09 4:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
seg
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/05
Posts: 7769
Do the players make more money in the Heineken Cup tournament?  In other words, are the top players in the Heinken tournament sides, and good Guinness premiership players are always looking to "step up" to the big show that is the Heineken Cup?  Or is it pretty similar, and players just hook up with which ever team offers them the best contract? 

Do English fans normally have a Guinness premiership team that they follow as a favorite and then also a favorite Heineken Cup team?  Or alternatively, do fans prefer one competition over the other and mainly just follow either the Heineken or Guinness competition?

If a team gets knocked out of the Heineken Cup early do they loan their players to the Guinness premiership teams?  I assume there are perennially weak Heineken Cup teams that get knocked out early year after year, are these players paid by the match, as opposed to earning an annual salary?  If you play on a shitty Heineken team you could be done playing way early.  I assume these guys then try to hoohk up with Guinness teams for the remainder of the season?

I think the 6 Nations starts real soon. So, that means the premiership will not be completed before the 6 Nations starts.  Do players in the Heinken Cup or Guinness Premiership have the unilatreral right to take a leave from their team to play for their country, or does the team decide whether or not to allow them to play in the 6 Nations?
2/5/09 6:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
fingers 'n' teeth
40 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9861
Your questions highlight a miss-understanding of the top european game

Heiniken cup teams this year.

Irish
Munster
Leinster
Ulster

English
Sale
Wasps
Leicester
Harlequins
Gloucester
Bath

French
Clermont Auvergne
Montauban
Toulouse
Stade Francais
Perpignan
Biarritz
Castres

Scottish
Glasgow
Edinburgh

Welsh
Ospreys
Scarlets
Newport-Gwent D'gons
Cardiff Blues

Italian
Treviso
Calvisano

Guiness Premiership teams this year

1 Gloucester
2 London Irish
3 Sale
4 Bath
5 Leicester
6 Harlequins
7 Saracens
8 Northampton
9 Wasps
10 Worcester
11 Newcastle
12 Bristol

Celtic league
1 Munster
2 Ospreys
3 Leinster
4 Scarlets
5 Edinburgh
6 Glasgow
7 Ulster
8 Newport-Gwent D'gons
9 Cardiff Blues
10 Connacht

Look at the tables above and you see that some but not all of the teams in the different Home nation leagues get into the Heiniken Cup. The teams qualify, not players. Players get into the heiniken cup because their team qualified. There are no teams made purely for that tournament.
Think of it as a tournament of champion teams.

Do the players make more money in the Heineken Cup tournament? In other words, are the top players in the Heinken tournament sides, and good Guinness premiership players are always looking to "step up" to the big show that is the Heineken Cup? Or is it pretty similar, and players just hook up with which ever team offers them the best contract?

Players make more because they play more games. Also its a more prestegeous tourney so the gates pull in more. However its the team that qualifies. Its a tourney for the best teams, not the best players. Teams are always looking to step up to take part in the heiniken cup for the money it brings.

Do English fans normally have a Guinness premiership team that they follow as a favorite and then also a favorite Heineken Cup team? Or alternatively, do fans prefer one competition over the other and mainly just follow either the Heineken or Guinness competition?

If their team is in teh Heiniken cup then they will show interest. Otherwise they will watch a team from their country. When the heiniken cup is on, i look for any welsh team to do well but my team is the Scarlets genreally. If a supporters team is not in teh heiniken cup they may not show any interest at all unless they watch for their enjoyment of the game as a whole.

If a team gets knocked out of the Heineken Cup early do they loan their players to the Guinness premiership teams? I assume there are perennially weak Heineken Cup teams that get knocked out early year after year, are these players paid by the match, as opposed to earning an annual salary? If you play on a shitty Heineken team you could be done playing way early. I assume these guys then try to hoohk up with Guinness teams for the remainder of the season?

The heiniken cup is a tourney that not everyteam plays in that is separate from the guiness premiership. Generally, on weekends that the heiniken cup plays there are no premiership matches. So teams not in the Cup still have Premiership matches to play but its unlikely they'll play any games on the same weekend as teh heiniken cup.

look here
http://www.union.quins.co.uk/rugby/1stxvfixtures.php

that is the harlequins fixture list for 2008-2009

if you look at the column to the right of time of KO you'll see that each match has a designation (GP = guiness premiership, EDF = welsh/english cup, HC = heiniken cup).
The Harlequins will play in all these competitions using the same squad of 40 odd players. Players will not jump from team to team to play in different tourneys. The team qualifys not the player and fixtures are co-ordinated so that the competitions don't clash.
One weekend they play GP, then HC, then back to GP for a few weeks then EDF etc etc. When they are out fo the cup the weekend designated for that tourney becomes an off week for the team and players.

I think the 6 Nations starts real soon. So, that means the premiership will not be completed before the 6 Nations starts. Do players in the Heinken Cup or Guinness Premiership have the unilatreral right to take a leave from their team to play for their country, or does the team decide whether or not to allow them to play in the 6 Nations?


International weekends take presidence over all club commitments to the point that on International weekend no top flight club matches are played. Players are released from clubs for international duty and are fully commited to the international team until the end of the international season.

There are official sanctioned time tabled weekends where clubs are required to release players selected for internationals. Sometimes countries will organise internationals outside of these sanctioned times and it causes problems for some players as clubs have the right to hold the player for club play. This usually results in the National team either paying for the player release or going without the player all together.

So in summary.

The top teams of each Country play in their domestic leagues and cups as well as teh heiniken cup.
They enter into the heiniken cup by qualifying via performance in the previous year. Teams that do not qualify do not play on the weekend of the cup and players do not hop back and fore between teams for the cup. Teams qualify and they hold player contracts and do not share them.

international duty takes presidence over all this and the timetables each year are organised so teh differnt leagues, competitions and internationals don't clash.
2/7/09 1:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
seg
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/05
Posts: 7779
 Thanks for the info, that was very helpful.  I was thinking they were separate leagues and thought maybe one was a lower league and the other was the top league, sort of like I understand they do with English soccer.
2/10/09 2:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
fingers 'n' teeth
40 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9884
Mr Winston Churchill - The Magners league (also called the celtic league) is the Irish, welsh and scottish version of the Guiniess premiership. Standard is not as high as the Guiness premiership - really? English teams have not done well so far in the Heiniken Cup this season.


well, thats not really me speaking, thats my fathers and brothers words.

I'm Welsh (born and bred) but I live in Chicago so i don't get to see much of the premiership or the magners league.

However, my father and my elder brother both stated last time we spoke that the standard of the Premiership was higher.

My father is old school Welsh and does not see the English in favorable light, so when he makes that claim i have to believe him.

Although, that was last season so perhaps things are different now.
3/5/09 10:53 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
seg
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/05
Posts: 8182
One thing I like about rugby is that the players and the clubs all acknowledge that playing for one's country takes precedence over all other competitions.

In America, for the most part the NBA players view participating in the Olympics as a chore, and none of them really want to play.  Anyone that can says their knee hurts, etc., and begs out.

They just have so much money they can get away with it.  Then periodically America gets embarassed in an international tournament, the NBA administration gets pissed and makes the good players go and play again and doesn't let them feign injury.  After a few international victories the standards get relaxed, the U.S. gets beat again, and then it starts all over.

Same with baseball.  They are trying to pull off this World Baseball Classic (for which no one in America gives two shits) to try and grow the game internationally.  But, the MLB teams don't want their good players to play in it because they pay them so much money they don't want their players to get hurt.  So the whole thing turns into a farce.

It appears at least rugby players take pride in playing for their nation in international tests.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.