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Jen >> Double Underhook Guard Pass

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3/9/09 5:14 PM
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legchoke101
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Member Since: 12/30/03
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Mike,

I have been very successful at using the tricep push to counter the aforementioned pass except when you get sucked up onto your shoulders first. Any advice?

Thanks!
3/9/09 8:21 PM
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Bolo
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I am assuming that you are referring to the pass in which your opponent has both legs on his shoulders?

Once he has sucked you up onto your shoulders, is he still right in front of you are has he begun to angle off and come around the side?
3/10/09 5:36 AM
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legchoke101
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Yes, he has both legs on his shoulders.

He is right in front of me . However, if you do not mind, can you also address what to do when he angles off. I have tried to wait until he starts to come around and use the tricep push, but being up on my upper back/shoulders seems to make the move work differently.

Thanks!
3/11/09 4:55 PM
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Bolo
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I am assuming you have read the Science of BJJ articles?

With that assumption, let's address first why your opponent is even able to get into this passing position on you in the first place- misalignment of your body. When you play open guard (and I am not talking about butterfly guard, DLR guard, etc....) in general, I would not suggest having your knees and ankles much wider than hip joint width apart. Your opponent can get either single or double leg on shoulder most likely because your legs are very wide open. If you legs are aligned, it will be much harder to get such passes. (on a side note, once I figured out this detail about alignment, it made me realized that was exactly what Joe Moreira was doing to prevent me from getting the leg on shoulder pass on him in the past.) It will be harder to get such a pass because your legs will be in the way of where his body wants to be (no 2 objects can occupy the same space at the same time)

I always get the question, "If you have your legs aligned, doesn't that make your knees too close together, making it vulnerable to the hugging over top both legs?"

The answer is no. You just have to think outside the box the a little bit. When others tell you not to keep your knees close together, most people think about spreading their legs wide apart. What about having one leg extended while the other is contracted (like the movement of riding a bike)? If you have one leg forward and one leg back, your knees are apart too.

As a person begins to angle off, you have to look at how the pass works. Essentially, the opponent is trying to create counter rotation. For those who aren';t familiar with the term 'counter rotation", it basically means that the torso is twisted in the opposite direction of the hips. Once counter rotation is placed on your body, your goal must be to re-align yourself. This means you must either get your lower body to align and face the same direction of your upper body or vice versa. As far as whether you can align your lower to your upper or upper to your lower, I can't say as you are just going to have to feel based on what your opponent is doing.

If you push with an arm or both arms, make sure you are not pushing yourself into counter rotation. What I mean by this is that you don't want your arms attempting to push to your right as your lower body is being twisted to the left. If you are pushing with you arm, make sure the line of your arm makes a 90 degree angle with the line between your shoulders. This mechanically the strongest structure for you to have when pushing.
3/13/09 4:18 PM
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legchoke101
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Mike,

I appreciate you taking your time to answer questions on this board. Unfortunately for you, a lot of us do not have the same level of interest in BJJ and that seems to be frustrating you. If that is the case, I apologize in advance.

Thanks!
3/13/09 6:09 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 03/14/09 9:13 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
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"Unfortunately for you, a lot of us do not have the same level of interest in BJJ and that seems to be frustrating you. If that is the case, I apologize in advance."

Huh? I'm not frustrated at anyone. I'm not sure why you would get the impression that I was frustrated with your question. Your questions are welcome and I don't see any reason to apologize for anything. Maybe I should apologize if somehow I came across in a way that was different than my intention.
3/16/09 12:39 AM
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laqueus
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Good stuff. Going to take me a bit to digest this. I'll get a good opportunity to test it as there's a guy I regularly compte against who loves the double underhook pass.
3/16/09 6:44 AM
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Prik Khee Noo
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Bolo, I'm really appreciating your approach to BJJ. I think it appeals to us cerebral types. Any chance you'll be publishing a book about this?
3/16/09 6:54 AM
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laqueus
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Not likely, he said it would take a lot of time and there are other things he would prefer to spend it on. Although if you take all his posts here you could probably compile them to make a small book.
3/16/09 12:40 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 03/16/09 12:40 PM
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Prik Knee Noo,

I don't have any plans to publish a book as books take so much more work. Maybe my view will change in the future, as I haven't completely written off the idea, but as least at the moment, I don't have any plans. Maybe if I had some assistance I'd be more open to the idea.

I'm glad you enjoy my approach to BJJ. The way I look at all BJJ techniques has changed a lot and this post was one of the first times I decided explain things in the manner in which I see things now. I had been hesitant to convey info like this before because I was unsure how accepting people would be of it.

I know that some people are still looking for answers given in the traditional manner of "put your hand here, push there, grab this, etc..., however, this is simply not how I view technique anymore and I don't feel comfortable stating something that I know may possibly be inaccurate (for the reasons of Article 3 on random variability).
3/16/09 5:26 PM
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laqueus
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I find beginners get frustrated by these types of explanations, as it can be confusing and is a lot to keep in mind. So when I'm explaining things to them I try keeping a bit more of a traditional explanation. When people have more experience I like to explain things in terms of breaking momentum, keeping people in the box created by your shoulders and hips and such. It seems similar to your approach, although of course much less developed.

What I'm really curious about is if you've found a way to explain this type of thing to complete beginners, and have them apply it properly.
3/16/09 11:43 PM
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Bolo
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There actually several good issues that are being brought up.....

The first thing is to understand that teaching in person is different than trying to explain the answer for something that someone is describing in text. When teaching in person, I can see and feel exactly what is happening and give an exact answer based on the variables that I see and feel. But I always include the disclaimer that the exact answer I give only applies to that exact situation, so if I were to feel the variables of the situation changed ever so slightly, that would change my answer ever so slightly. Basically, unless presented with a very specific and exact situation, the answer is always, "It depends." Since there is no way a text description could provide all the variables to give a exact answer, I feel the most accurate way to reply is based on the principles of the situation.

When it comes to how to teach those who do not know these principles, depends on the situation. If I were to teach a regular white belt in person on a consistent basis, I usually I usually introduce small bits at a time, but it does start right in the beginning. When I introduce the small bits, I immediately put it in the context of what I am teaching along with the traditional explanations. Within a decent amount of time, they are at least familiar enough with the terms that they understand what I am saying. Of course, keep in mind that all my students take private lessons, so it is much easier to explain things in such a situation. I've never really thought about how I would teach this material if I had to teach a regular group class that had beginners starting all the time.

In my mount escape, pin escape, and science of BJJ courses, the first 45 minutes is lecture so I give them all the background info they need to understand the material that will be presented later. Once I present all the info, the course attendees don't seem to have a problem with understanding when I give them this kind of explanation when I teach them the techniques.

Keep in mind that learning the principles and applying it properly are two different things. One is input and the other is output. The ratio between input and output is not 1 to 1. A person needs a lot of input before they can produce proper output. A person need to hear and see it over and over for the input to sink it. That's why it doesn't matter if they don't understand everything the first time. They are probably going to need to see and hear it hundreds of more times before they can produce proper output.
3/17/09 12:34 AM
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laqueus
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That does help. It will give me something to think about when explaining things. Particularly the bit about saying it's only for that specific situation. I think I overextend myself applying principles for all situations, and also find myself ignoring obvious openings because they didn't fit the principles I set for myself. That's like what you said about thinking outside the box for keeping the legs appart.

Is the 45 minute lecture a video you send to the attendants ahead of time or do you give it at the beginning of the seminar?
3/17/09 2:02 AM
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Bolo
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I give the lecture in the beginning of the seminar.

When I explain principles to my students, I try to differentiate between

- principles that are universal

- principles that are just specific to a certain position or situation

- principles that are personal preferences

I tend to teach principles in that order too (universal, situation/position, personal preference) as I feel it makes sense to go from general to specific.
3/17/09 4:11 AM
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laqueus
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That makes sense. Any chance of getting one of those lectures video taped and available? I would think it would be of benefit to people who can't make it to the seminar. Or is it something that needs practical experience to really apply well?
3/17/09 2:53 PM
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Bolo
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I don't have the hardware and software anymore to make instructional videos. So even if I wanted to put this info on video, that would be an issue.

If you can't make to one of my seminars, you may want to look into possibly hosting one in your area.

The principles that I teach are simple and common principles of postural alignment, physics, and biomechanics. The info can actually be found in many books and academic courses as I'm not re-inventing the wheel. What is different is how I apply that to BJJ. So the lecture by itself is only of little benefit. The main benefit comes when I teach how to apply it to BJJ techniques. In my seminars, if you were to take the lecture part alone, it's just a bunch of interesting info. If you were to look at the technique section alone, you may not understand the context from which I am teaching. So, in my opinion, the main benefits come from the combination.
3/17/09 6:59 PM
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legchoke101
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Mike,

I have been debating over responding or not because I do not want to appear disrespectful or argumentative over free advice. However, I felt it was important to explain why I said you seemed frustrated.

When I read the first sentence of your response it appeared to be antagonistic; therefore, I felt the question must have frustrated you. I fully understand that you have changed the way you view and practice BJJ and this has led to a different way of answering questions. However, I was just looking for a quick answer since I realize nothing works all of the time.

Since I learned the tricep push from your video (if you search your forum you will find where I praise this particular technique)I figured other students had encountered the same problem and it had to do with timing or something similar.

Anyhow, like I said before, I appreciate you taking your time to answer questions and hope this has not caused any undue consternation.

Thanks!
3/17/09 7:08 PM
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laqueus
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I got the impression he was just making sure you were both on the same page.

I hadn't thought about hosting. I'll talk to some gym owners here about that.
3/17/09 8:02 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 03/17/09 8:48 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5709
laqueus is correct. The first sentence was just making sure we were o the same page since my response was going to be in the context of the information in those articles. It was not meant to be antagonistic.

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