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S&C UnderGround >> Transfer


3/29/06 2:39 PM
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vermonter
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Edited: 29-Mar-06
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True, dev. This was my attempt at bringing the transfer questions to an end, and i think we pretty much succeeded :) That's important stuff IMO! -doug-
3/29/06 6:50 PM
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Buddhadev
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Edited: 29-Mar-06
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I definitely agree with it being important. Full disclosure: I'm not 100% to you guys' (you, Geoff, peter, others) way of thinking, but I do think it's a necessary antidote to athletes who are going nuts to get from a 300# bench to a 400# bench when they could be doing something more productive. In other news, I'm writing a mass-gaining program for some other forum members. May I email you a copy as well (for your feedback) when it's done?
3/29/06 7:24 PM
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vermonter
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"I'm not 100% to you guys' (you, Geoff, peter, others) way of thinking" Don't sweat it man, we can't ALL be right. ;) Actually, I suspect that the differences between us are less than you imagine. Please do send your program. bjjconditioning@yahoo.com will get it to me, unless you have hotmail. What's the ETA? -doug-
3/29/06 8:24 PM
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Buddhadev
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Tonight if I get inspired. Otherwise mid next week. Thanks man!
3/30/06 1:12 AM
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C-Hamzeh
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Edited: 30-Mar-06
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I'm so glad Kosta posted that... I was thinking this exact thing tonight driving home, but in a different context. We always read "this pro football players lifting regimen", or hockey player's, or whatever... My experience growing up around MANY sports is that many of the best guys did not do tons of supplemental work such as lifting until they got to the college or even pro level. So naturally, they would be on the lower end of GPP, but their skills/reflexes/etc, were so high, they went ahead while most of us were weeded out. Remember, most pro scouts look for naturals... naturals can be molded and supplemented better at a later time. Fighting is so skill based that many times even the very best never correct this, until they are met with someone even better (Nog and Fedor). C
3/30/06 3:52 AM
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Jorx
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Edited: 30-Mar-06
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Great read! I do not think I got a lot smarter or more knowing what is the "right" thing to do but great read nevertheless. BTW I think these numbers are largely erroneous but intuition tells me that about 1,5 BW 1RM bench; 2 BW 1RM squat and deadlift sound good to me and I'm working on to get these. Also 1 BW 1RM power clean and 0,75 BW 1RM snatch in some time. HOWEVER I think a figthing-athlete should NEVER worry too much about 1RM but more about how many sets-reps can he do with a specific exercise. E.g. being able to do proper 4x15 power clean with say 0,6 BW should always be more important than chasing the 1RM. Being able to benchpress 1 BW 5x5 with small rests more important than chasing the 1,5 BW 1RM or 2 BW 1RM or whatever. I personally think (and feel?)that more and smaller weight movements tend to transfer better to the sport. Might have to do something with slow-fast twitch fibers being used and with muscle fatigue during fighting etc? Also why specific cardio tends to have good tranfer (specific meaning intervals are similar to actual sport). My experience: I had really good "grappling cardio" I could do quite hard sparring for 45 minutes with small breaks between rounds. However my standup wrestling/judo cardio and boxing cardio totally sucked. Now when I started doing HIIT those totally boosted meaning I could also do more of them and therefore boost them more. However the grappling cardio seems to remain the same.
3/30/06 6:20 AM
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toddseney
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Edited: 30-Mar-06
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Mino could lift weights for the rest of his life and he'd never beat Fedor.
3/30/06 10:46 AM
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jbapk
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Edited: 30-Mar-06
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"However, he couldn't push Coleman, Randleman and Fujita around like that" Lol, he beat all three of those guys quicker then Mino.
3/30/06 11:43 AM
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vermonter
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Kos, Mino is pretty slender for a heavyweight. Being bigger could help his success if it didn't compromise other athletic factors. However, your consideration fails to extend to elite athletes in anything less than the heavyweight class since being bigger would place them in a new class, and at a disadvantage. -doug-
3/30/06 12:38 PM
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toddseney
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Fedor has superior technique period. He really doesn't lift weights all that often and doesn't really bully anybody around, it's technique.
3/30/06 12:44 PM
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vermonter
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You do not know how Fedor trains unless you train with Fedor. -doug-
3/30/06 12:58 PM
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jbapk
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Those three were all also high level wrestlers, with strong takedown techniques.
3/30/06 4:45 PM
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toddseney
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"You do not know how Fedor trains unless you train with Fedor." Yeah, I be he is secretly doing all kinds of powerlifting when the cameras are off. Randleman used technique to launch Fedor. Put Mariusz Pudzianowski in the ring with Fedor and watch what happens.
3/31/06 12:00 AM
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salyer36
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Edited: 30-Mar-06
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this is a really good thread
3/31/06 6:22 AM
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toddseney
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Fedor is physically strong, no doubt. But his beatings of Mino aren't because of his physical strength, they occured because he was able to nullify Mino's submissions, stay in top position and punch. Mino can, and has, submitted 99% of other fighters. Fedor just has a better game. Styles make fights.
3/31/06 11:31 AM
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Eddy Payeur
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Edited: 31-Mar-06
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ttt
3/9/13 9:47 AM
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vermonter
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Here's another good one from 9 years ago. Thought the newer crew might be interested in this one.

This, combined with Bompa's work was the root of my present theories posited on the "question for vermonter re hypertrophy" thread here.
3/9/13 6:40 PM
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Roidz Rule
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That was a great thread. I learned a good bit. I also loved the Nog vs Fedor discussion for nostalgia. Phone Post
3/9/13 8:36 PM
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banco
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This Chad Wesley Smith talk on transfer of training is pretty good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v_f6UKRx1kQ

Interesting point he makes about American track and field. Says that because Americans generally don't start focusing on shotput, hammer etc. until college the quickest way to get them to a respectable level is to focus on getting their strength up but they are unlikely to move beyond the respectable level because they started too late to put the skills work in.
3/10/13 3:40 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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it is an interesting POV, banco. In the book "talent is overrated," the author talks about "the rule of 10," in which for someone to become world-class in something, they basically need to put in 10,000 hours of quality practice into the activity, no matter where they start from. So I can see what Smith is talking about.

The fact is, if I take a kid who has been throwing since age 11, and even if he only does 5 hours of quality practice a week (not a lot, really. Only 1 hour a day on weekdays), by the time he is 18 he'll have logged 1820 hours already. Now, if you take a kid who starts at 18, for him to catch up to the other thrower, he's gonna have to make up that 1820 hours.

The problem lies in the fact that many skills, especially athletic ones, have an upper limit on how much quality practice a participant can do. Your mind cannot maintain focus for longer than certain periods, and with athletic skills, your body cannot maintain the needed output for learning those skills. The "Talent" author claims about 1 hour shots of intense practice is about the most anyone can maintain regardless of the activity. (Note, we are discussing very focused, mental practice, top intensity physical and mental-wise. Not just conditioning and other activties)

So even if you have the 18 year old doing 3 split sessions a day (and who would have that time considering the needs of college classes, etc), he's still at most out-training the other thrower by 1 hour a day (since most likely the former 11 year old is now also a university thrower, and doing 2 sessions at least themself). He's gonna be 7-8 years behind the other kid in catching up, skill-wise.

In a sport or activity that does not exactly have high levels of potential monetary reward, few if any participants can catch up from that far behind. The needs of life like paying bills, getting an education and job, etc, take over.

I think in Olympic and powerlifting a similar thing can be seen from the example of Mark Henry. I saw a video of him doing a powerlifting meet about a year before his Olympic participation, and yeah, the dude was a legit fucking beast. Regardless of his future profession, I can see why he can easily lay claim to the title of "World's Strongest Man." That being said, in the Olympics, he was mediocre at best, placing well down in the field both times he competed.

It was not because Mark was weaker than the compeition in either time he was in the Olympics. Fuck man, the guy has records that have stood for going on 17 years, and when you consider he was truly a tested athlete his entire career, with no drugs at all, its even more incredible. But, his technique when compared to the other athletes was nowhere near as good.
3/10/13 3:55 PM
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Leigh
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The maths on this page is horrible, lol Phone Post
3/10/13 7:07 PM
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HULC
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I have to say i disagree fundamentally with the "talent is over rated" book's premise. Genetics play a huge part in how successful an individual will be at different sports regardless of how much effort they put into training.
3/10/13 8:03 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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HULC, while for sports genetics does play a significant role (the author does address this), the fact is that genetics alone hardly can be the reason for ALL success or improvement in sports. There have been plenty of examples of genetically "inferior" people doing quite well, as well as genetically "superior" people struggling. I can think of examples even within my own limited experience.

Also, it is impossible to account for all improvement being strictly due to genetics, as DNA just doesn't evolve that fast. For example, in powerlifting the first 1000 pound squat was done less than 30 years ago (and it was done in what was considered gear for the time). Now, the RAW records are higher than that, and the geared records are 20% higher. Have humans improved that much genetically in a mere single generation?

Of course not. Technology has helped (hey, I'm not gonna discount the effects of powerlifting gear and "medical gear" in sports), but mental barriers and training efficiency I think are also just as important a role in the changes. The same in football, basketball, and many sports.

I'm as nostalgic as the next guy, but there is no way in hell that the "Iron Curtain" Pitsburgh Steelers of the 1970's would be able to even slow down a mediocre NFL team of today. Players are bigger, faster, and (at least when it comes to football) smarter.

And it is impossible to discount the effects of training on the other areas as well. Players are bigger because they are training earlier and more intensely than ever before. Their bodies are responding. Same with them being faster. When I was in high school 20 years ago, going to a summer camp for a university was a fun time, and few players did it. Now, you have kids going to positional coaches and intense training camps and clinics practically as soon as the competitive season ends (the merits of which can be debated in another thread).

The fact is, training and intense hours of it can overcome a lot of genetic limitations.
3/10/13 9:23 PM
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HULC
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That's an opinion, not a fact.

Intense training can bring people closer to the limit of their genetic potential than perhaps ever before - what with the vast amounts of research that have gone into sports over the last couple of decades. But at the end of the day DNA defines how much you can improve and at what point you will stop improving.

Regarding your specific examples, according to http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/records/raw/world
the men's raw squat record is under a 1,000 lbs and was set in the 70s. Although a lot of the record for the lower weight classes are much more recent. And i've watched less than a handful of American football games in my life, so can't make any comment on that at all. I will say that in boxing (a sport i've followed for years)there definitely has not been an improvement in technique over recent decades.

More over watch any olympics and you can't fail to see the genetic selection at work in any field. Sprints are dominated by slim, muscular, black guys. Swimming is dominated by tall, long limbed white guys. Shot put is dominated by fat people. Basketball is dominated by tall skinny people. These people didn't get that way by training, their genes gave them characteristics that were helpful in their sport. Sometimes people who don't fit the stereotype do well, but they are always the exception and not the rule, and usually have had to have vastly superior technique in order to even be competitive with the people who have the gentic gifts to excel.
3/10/13 9:45 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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HULC, I'm not sure where you are getting it being set in the 70's, as the same website lists a 1000 squat. Of course, the definition of "raw" is iffy at best. I personally use the lack of a squat suit as being raw, not the lack of knee wraps. That being said, when you have guys on there lifting a lot more, with guys like Konstantinov doing numbers that equipped guys couldn't touch even a decade ago.

And the problem with saying its just genetics is that there are literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who fit the genetic profiles you listed above. Slim, muscular black guys? The numbers of that alone in the United States is probably at least a million. Tall white guys with long limbs? Again, a shit ton of those. And that doesn't explain how guys like Kosuke Kitajima was able to be so dominant in the breast stroke for almost 12 years. He's not white, he's really not all that tall (5'10"), yet he was a gold medalist in two breaststroke events (100 and 200 m) at consecutive Olympics, at one point holding the world record for both events.

The fact is, training and genetics will go hand in hand with physical events. To just put it on genetics is only addressing half the equation or less, honestly.

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