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UnderGround Forums >> resurrection, revolution, redemption (religious)


4/12/09 1:35 PM
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reverend john
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Hello friends,

This is my annual resurrection Sunday thread, yes I know there is a holyground, no I don't care. If you don't want to read about Jesus, please just click on another thread. If you are a believer I hope I might suggest a different way of looking at today's celebration, if you are not a believer, I hope to give you some food for thought, and perhaps a way to engage with the holiday anyways.

In the Western world of Christianity we have tended to put a lot of emphasis upon the crucifixion. I would say above the emphasis on the resurrection. The idea being that Jesus died for our sins, and with that redemptive act, he was punished for our sins, so we would not be "saved". But in the Eastern world of Christianity we see an equal emphasis on the resurrection or maybe even a greater one. And just for today I would like you to join me in looking at that idea.

You see, during the time of Jesus there were many Christ's, or messiahs. This time of Roman occupation was very hard for the Jewish people and they believed very strongly that Messiah would come, and destroy the Romans, and bring back the sovereignty of Israel, and the kingdom of God would begin. Many people imagined they were called to be this Messiah, and they would begin to lead a revolt against the Romans, believing that as they took military steps against their great oppressors God would miraculously join them in their revolt and overthrow the government. Jesus (Yashua) Bar Abbas, (the revolutionary that we call Barrabbas in the gospel stories) was one such man, but there were many others.

The thing is, all of these messiahs wound up in the same place, executed for treason, often on a cross. When Jesus bar Joseph, (jesus the son of joseph), was identified as the messiah, it was believed he would be the true messiah and restore the kingdom to Israel. However, much to the anguish and crushing despair of his followers, he too wound up upon a Roman cross. He would have been just another failed messiah.

But a few days later, we read that Jesus did not stay in the grave. That he was resurrected. And in this belief, he was not just another failed messiah, but the beginning of a revolution, that would in fact rattle the very chains of Rome's hold upon the Jews.

Now, if you do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead (as I most assuredly do) or even that Jesus never did any of the miracles that are attributed to him, or maybe even don't believe that Jesus even lived as an actual person, I would still like to invite you to follow me here, looking at Jesus as a mythological archtype (though again I believe He lived, and was infact who he said he was).

Jesus came from the wrong side of the tracks, hung out with losers, whores, radicals and the outsiders, and stood amidst the government of Rome and the leaders of the Jewish religion, and declared himself the beginning of the kingdom of God. He called the Jewish people to forsake their military dreams of revolution, and called for a kingdom where the poor were esteemed, the sick were the chosen, the disempowered ruled and the leaders were the servants. He called for a non violent opposition to injustice, and embraced all with a love that was pure, and without measure. He called us to treat everyone as we would want ourselves to be treated, and said not to return evil for evil, but good for evil. He said the kingdom of God wasn't to come, but was right here and now as we lived by these upside down values. And in doing so he drew the wrath of the powers of the day, both civil and religious.

So this man standing for peace and love gets in the way. And is murdered for it. The powers that be, come down upon him with all of their vengeance, hatred, racism, violence, shame all poured onto him. And he accepts it all. The powers that be, use all of their weapons to break this man, and he basically takes every blow, and when they have exhausted even their greatest weapon, death itself, leaving him waiting for the end, he conquers it all with love. He says, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing". Violence, and hatred are conquered by love.

But then, even if it is only mythical, the story continues. Jesus comes to life again. Not only are all the weapons of the powers beaten by love, but they are completely overwhelmed by the resurrection. That in giving his life, Jesus destroys the hold of the powers, and calls us all to follow him. We do not march to our deaths in finality, but in our deaths new, resurrection, life begins. This is truly revolution. Again, if even just a myth, the story says even in death, you live on inspiring others, becoming a seed that grows into more truth, and freedom.

Jesus rises again, Jesus rises above, Jesus gives us hope for a new world. That nothing can stop us, not even a cross, a bullet, a hang man's noose, or the slow passing of old age.

In my life, I can face the cross, I can face the powers, I can face the personal inconveniences and sufferings, because I know that in the end, it all pales in comparison to the kingdom, and the victory of that kingdom. Life is meant to be lived in the freedom and victory of the resurrection. Death has lost its sting, I live life not awaiting my end, but in defiance of it. I am called to follow Jesus in loving with abandon, standing for justice, and taking joy in this magnificent creation.

This day we reflect on the idea that the end, was merely the beginning, all of our pain and suffering and even our deaths are redeemed and the revolution begins anew. viva la revolution

rev
4/12/09 2:19 PM
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AlbertEinstein
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Hmmm. People must be busy on Easter. Usually the religious threads grow really fast.
4/12/09 2:34 PM
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reverend john
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sleeping off their good saturday hangovers ?
4/12/09 2:42 PM
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Root12
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ttt

Thanks Rev
4/12/09 2:42 PM
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MattBenwa
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Wrong forum - but at least you're respectful, non-preachy, and you labeled your thread correctly ;)

Brian Warren take note!
4/12/09 2:47 PM
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reverend john
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I have been posting an easter and a christmas message for twelve years or so, as a former pro fighter, and a pro trainer they were deemed okay by kirik, who is

the man

rev
4/12/09 3:02 PM
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rgx
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TTT Thanks Rev. I always enjoy these threads.
4/12/09 3:07 PM
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Kirik
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Mixed Martial Arts LLC, President
 Thank you for posting that. Your messages are always apperciated. Post fight days area always slow, hangovers doubtless play a role :-)
4/12/09 3:11 PM
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reverend john
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sans lubricant -   http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=2&thread=1444816&page=1&pc=1


  Here is a dose of reality for you Christian scam artists.


syncretism is not something I feel any need to argue with, it is true, there were many reasons for it, most of them not good.

rev
4/12/09 3:19 PM
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Jeepster
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as the Rev said, if you don't want to read... move on
4/12/09 3:24 PM
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reverend john
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the teachings of Jesus are the only hope for mankind. They tell us that a new world, a different world is possible. Do not think I am part of the Christian right, or left for that matter. Loving your neighbor instead of bombing them, caring for the poor and marginalized, standing against all oppression. These are the ideas of a future that will sustain life, rather than destroy it. That is in my opinion the most civilized of thought.

rev
4/12/09 3:24 PM
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reverend john
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and just where did I lie?

rev
4/12/09 3:34 PM
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reverend john
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Christianity does not preach or practice these things many times, and for that I am deeply sorry, but that does not mean it is not what Jesus did, and taught.

The concepts of Jesus were rational enough to inspire Gandhi and MLK, I will side with them.

rev
4/12/09 3:36 PM
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reverend john
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wizzy - there is nothing I hate worse than a Christian. i was going to come on here and say some really hateful stuff that would have certainly got me banned but instead I just want to say this:

"You wilted mizzy wazzerspam, incested with scrazzy scuz fluk, trust me, your shiz nitz scumhole is going to get flabberbammed sooner than you think you wrottenkrotch mobstrosity. guzzle skum as fast as you can you peter--fluffing dingle donger, your zizzy zaznat routine has cum to an end, Rambo has risen from the dead and is making a tour thru Cambodia and Kansas and is on his way to ream all boozholes gizmos.

You foul fecal-fingered unwashed masturbator? What filthy jizzumed beaver have you guzzled snatch wazzum from today? You should post pictures so the world will be enlightened by your depravity."

and that makes as much sense as anything ever written in that garbage you call the bible. and don't any of you chicken spreading whoremongerers get any bright ideas and try to steal my masterpiece of poetry that is quoted above. it's copyrighted.


too late, I already put it in the new new testament.

rev
4/12/09 3:36 PM
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bigwignj
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AlbertEinstein - Hmmm. People must be busy on Easter. Usually the religious threads grow really fast.


He put (religious) in the title, which was a heads up to not click on it, in which case I thank him.
4/12/09 3:38 PM
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reverend john
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isn't it interesting that I clearly labeled this thread, and you both feel the need to come here and talk shit, but I, the supposedly judgmental hypocrite, just leave you and your atheistic thread to yourselves, or respond with respect?

makes you wonder who is the real religious folk

rev
4/12/09 3:39 PM
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Perfer Et Obdura
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MattBenwa - Wrong forum - but at least you're respectful, non-preachy, and you labeled your thread correctly ;)

Brian Warren take note!


+1
4/12/09 3:44 PM
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reverend john
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please go away you have no interest in dialogue you are merely stirring up shit

rev
4/12/09 4:43 PM
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reverend john
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In my belief system no you are not

rev
4/12/09 5:12 PM
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the_sandman
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Edited: 04/12/09 5:12 PM
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Interesting dialog rev, but I would argue that a civilized world is not a Christian one.

George W Bush got elected primarily by the vote of Christians, many of whom were pushed by their church to cast a vote based on "morals". The entire time I found myself wondering exactly what part of this guys actual platform would Jesus actually have supported?

The truth is there is not a single modern theistic religion I can think of that does not or did not at one point abuse it's loyal following into committing atrocious acts.

The most civilized world would absolutely not be centered around what Christianity is in practice today, a means to centralize wealth and power. Jesus would not have put his stamp of approval on modern Christianity and from what I have read from you in the past I don't think you would completely either.
4/12/09 5:21 PM
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Osumo
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reverend john - please go away you have no interest in dialogue you are merely stirring up shit

rev



Yet you're the one deliberately posting this crap in the wrong forum, you get what you ask for.
4/12/09 5:28 PM
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Posty Magee
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ttt
4/12/09 5:28 PM
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reverend john
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completely? how about not at all

a friend of mine went as far as saying Christianity is the anti-christ, I find it hard to disagree with him. When you have an ideology that is violent, money centered, power mongering, oppressive and hierarchical it is hard to see how it is in any way related to Jesus who was completely the opposite of these things. The marriage of the state and the church finalized the subversion of Christianity and its gotten worse as time has gone by. However, throughout history there have been amazing people, in all Christian traditions, that have striven to be truly Christ like, from Benedict to Francis, to St. John Chrysostom, to Dorothy Day, Waldo of Lyons, Mother Teresa, Gandhi, John Dear, the anabaptists, and many many more.

the thing that pisses me off is that I started this post saying that looking at Jesus as a mythical archetype (jung is considered to be rational I believe) you can still be part of the conversation, I then accepted that synchretism is true and a problem, I then admitted to the hypocrisy of the church, yet people still feel the need to continue to attack, rather than look and see what good can be found. Yet Christians are constantly being accused of being judgmental, intolerant, prideful, pushy, and evangelistic.

rev
4/12/09 5:30 PM
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reverend john
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Osumo - 
reverend john - please go away you have no interest in dialogue you are merely stirring up shit

rev



Yet you're the one deliberately posting this crap in the wrong forum, you get what you ask for.


I asked for people that didn't want to read it to skip it, that is what I asked for.

rev
4/12/09 5:31 PM
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reverend john
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perhaps you didn't read this:
Kirik -  Thank you for posting that. Your messages are always apperciated. Post fight days area always slow, hangovers doubtless play a role :-)


in case you were wondering, he is the owner of the forum, and has welcomed my posts since day one.

rev

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