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PhilosophyGround >> I'm not okay with death and dying


4/29/09 1:11 PM
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springfield
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Edited: 04/29/09 1:12 PM
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2JupitersTooMany - 
springfield - If meow mix's husband loves her and his kids and recognizes that driving a motorcycle is an unnecessary risk (based on probabilities), then he should reconsider doing it if they are a high priority.
I just threw up in my mouth
LOL.  Are you single?  Anyway, I'm not saying he should necessarily give up driving a motorcycle.  I'm saying someone's priorities should dictate the types of risks he takes.  
4/29/09 1:20 PM
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Sir Anodos
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pats0 - 
Sir Anodos - If you read a lot of near death experiences brain activity as the only explanation is doubtful. Now if consciousness somehow lies beyond the sum of the human body (lets say at a sub-atomic level) then the experience of near death could have what people call a "natural" explanation, but that would still point to experiences that go beyond the body.


Near death experiences being only due to brain activity aren't doubtful at all. Your consciousness and personality are directly tied to your brain. That is why when people have certain brain injuries their personalities can change.

If you believe in a soul or something that survives after death then what would survive when someone with personality change, due to a brain injury, dies? Is it their old personality (no reason to believe this) or their new one? If you think it's the new one and the new personality was due to brain injury then a lack of a brain (ie. death) is more likely to result in no personality (ie. nothingness) rather can the new personality surviving after the death of the brain.

If you think that humans go somewhere after death then you better have an explanation as to where other organisms go too, since we all evolved together and it just happens that our brain are just more complex than those of other animals (ie. apes, dogs, etc). The human brain, consciousness, and personality are not different from animals in terms of type, but in terms of degree (ie. we are not special or different, just more complex).

Death is the scariest thing I can think of.


You are working with outdated information. In some near death experiences the people are "floating" in spaces above their bodies and can later describe details of medical procedures they would have no way of knowing.

We actually don't know that consciousness is tied to the body and even some of the most resolute materialist atheists agree that it is problematic to place it there.

If consciousness is expressed through the body then damage to that body would distort consciousness. That is not the same thing as grounding it in the body. If you have actually experienced the personality changes of brain damage you may notice that the core "something" about the person is still there. I experienced it on a person level. It is not the same as a whole different person, more like the same person expressed differently.
4/29/09 1:35 PM
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TDre42
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"The thing that makes NDE's hard to dismiss as the firings of a dying brain is when patients are able to recount things going on after they were clinically dead or seeing the situation from a 3rd person view and recounting details they couldnt have observed even if awake." -HELWIG

I saw the same thing on Nat.Geo. on their special on death.
The guy was blindfolded and was knocked out. He was able to recall the specifics of how the surgeon was using his elbows to point at tools he needed from his assistants. The doc reconciled the account and no one can explain the occurrence.

Another account talk about a guy who flat lined for +10 mins and said it was just like taking a long dreamless nap with no recollection of anytime in between.
4/29/09 2:00 PM
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gw99
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you are energy. When your body stops working you life energy is released back into the stars.
4/29/09 2:12 PM
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pats0
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Sir Anodos - You are working with outdated information. In some near death experiences the people are "floating" in spaces above their bodies and can later describe details of medical procedures they would have no way of knowing.

We actually don't know that consciousness is tied to the body and even some of the most resolute materialist atheists agree that it is problematic to place it there.

If consciousness is expressed through the body then damage to that body would distort consciousness. That is not the same thing as grounding it in the body. If you have actually experienced the personality changes of brain damage you may notice that the core "something" about the person is still there. I experienced it on a person level. It is not the same as a whole different person, more like the same person expressed differently.


I know out of body experiences (OBE) are a normal occurrence that they theorize involves the spatial process of your brain being messed up and essentially, "your center" (which if normally inside your head) moves over, so that essentially you are seeing yourself. The actual image you see isn't real, but it reacts to your movement. It's common in aircraft pilots.

As for the people describing details of the medical procedure, those details have to be quite specific and unique to hold weight. The procedure done on someone who's heart has stopped I assume is quite general and could be described without necessarily seeing it. Also, during the stopping of the heart the brain is still alive for a bit and if anesthesia is wearing off it is possible for someone to hear sounds, what people are saying, etc.

TDre42 - The guy was blindfolded and was knocked out. He was able to recall the specifics of how the surgeon was using his elbows to point at tools he needed from his assistants. The doc reconciled the account and no one can explain the occurrence.


Something like this is not that specific. Also, I bet people say that they see all sorts of things, many of which never happen. Those that did happen to coincide, probably by coincidence, are the ones that are reported.
4/29/09 2:29 PM
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Thage
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I had an experience from a way too high dosage of medicine mixed with an illegal substance that honestly put me in a state where I felt like I was about to die. This wasn't me freaking out and not being able to handle my shit, as I'm a pro in that area, just some creeping feeling that those could be my last moments. I rode the wave, and relaxed. I was completely ready for those to be my last moments alive and I enjoyed them.

Thats the first and only time I've ever felt something like that.
4/29/09 2:36 PM
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Russfromlowell
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gw99 - you are energy. When your body stops working you life energy is released back into the "WORMS".





FIXED
4/29/09 3:18 PM
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Soup and Beer
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Edited: 04/29/09 3:20 PM
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OceanMinded - 
Soup and Beer - 
OceanMinded - 


I am not the same person I was before that happened either.

 

 Care to elaborate?

 Sorry. Haven't been on in a while.

If a person could be "haunted," and I don't mean in the conventional spiritual sense, then that's me. It is very hard to articulate what I mean, but I'll try.

I was given an injection intraveniously that was prepared as an intramuscular shot. Meaning it had a 2% Lidocane solution that was meant to ease the shot when given in the muscle. As it was given in the vein, it went straight to my heart, liteally within 2 - 3 seconds of having been administered.

It effectively shut my heart down for 30 - 60 seconds. My wife told me they could not get anything onthe EKG when they hooked it up for up to a minute. I was told the fact I survived was attributed to my overall health and 25+ years in athletics. I have also been told by a number of people in the medical field that I should be dead. (still)

Now the difficult part. I am more emotional now, more apt to depression, and I do what I can really only call "zone," and not realize I am doing it. I am certainly different, but with no medical or psychological background, it is difficult for me to explain how. My memory has been affected. Things bother me that never did in 34 years previous to my "death." I no longer have the stomach to see things die, even in fictional settings. I am a horror buff, have been since the original Halloween came out, but I can't tolerate as much now. Seeing animals die affects me now where before it did not.

Perhaps it's age. Perhaps not........ (oh, and FRAT)
I wonder if this might be psychological.  I mean, having the doctors tell you that you were dead for over a minute has to affect you mentally in some way.  I bet if you would have woken up and they told you that you fainted from low blood sugar, you would not have had the same aftereffect reaction.

Maybe the memory loss might be attributed to the actual event though.  I would imagine a few brain cells dying off under those circumstances.
  
4/29/09 4:27 PM
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HELWIG
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 Ive read some interesting accounts of people who believe they experience heaven and hell. Odd that youd get there is you were still in a state of being able to be revived imo.

Some pretty vivid accounts though and significantly different from the classical imagery youd expect if it was just dreaming.
4/29/09 4:33 PM
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pats0
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HELWIG -  Ive read some interesting accounts of people who believe they experience heaven and hell. Odd that youd get there is you were still in a state of being able to be revived imo.

Some pretty vivid accounts though and significantly different from the classical imagery youd expect if it was just dreaming.


Expect if it was just dreaming? Dreams are almost always crazy and weird (ie. unexpected).
4/29/09 8:50 PM
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juszczec
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meow mix

"What does it mean to truely live?"

You've got kids. Raise them to be people that help others.

You've got a husband. Take care of your relationship with him.

You've got other people in your life. Do whatever you can for them.

Take care of yourself. Be the kind of person people are happy to have in their lives.

At least, that's what I think makes for a meaningful life.

Bottom line - we don't know what happens after we die. We'll find out, and it will be whatever it is. Its as foolish to spend time arguing about it as it is to wonder if androids dream of electric sheep.

But - we all know people who've fucked up their lives. We should worry about not doing THAT.
4/29/09 9:03 PM
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Ausgepicht
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4/29/09 9:37 PM
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Sir Anodos
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The thing about near death experiences is that they are about witness testimony, which a person will never believe if he is dogmatically committed to the idea that consciousness only resides in the human body. In one respect it doesn't matter, but people like that are going to have a bumpy ride when they die.
4/29/09 10:34 PM
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OceanMinded
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Soup and Beer - 
OceanMinded - 
Soup and Beer - 
OceanMinded - 


I am not the same person I was before that happened either.

 

 Care to elaborate?

 Sorry. Haven't been on in a while.

If a person could be "haunted," and I don't mean in the conventional spiritual sense, then that's me. It is very hard to articulate what I mean, but I'll try.

I was given an injection intraveniously that was prepared as an intramuscular shot. Meaning it had a 2% Lidocane solution that was meant to ease the shot when given in the muscle. As it was given in the vein, it went straight to my heart, liteally within 2 - 3 seconds of having been administered.

It effectively shut my heart down for 30 - 60 seconds. My wife told me they could not get anything onthe EKG when they hooked it up for up to a minute. I was told the fact I survived was attributed to my overall health and 25+ years in athletics. I have also been told by a number of people in the medical field that I should be dead. (still)

Now the difficult part. I am more emotional now, more apt to depression, and I do what I can really only call "zone," and not realize I am doing it. I am certainly different, but with no medical or psychological background, it is difficult for me to explain how. My memory has been affected. Things bother me that never did in 34 years previous to my "death." I no longer have the stomach to see things die, even in fictional settings. I am a horror buff, have been since the original Halloween came out, but I can't tolerate as much now. Seeing animals die affects me now where before it did not.

Perhaps it's age. Perhaps not........ (oh, and FRAT)
I wonder if this might be psychological.  I mean, having the doctors tell you that you were dead for over a minute has to affect you mentally in some way.  I bet if you would have woken up and they told you that you fainted from low blood sugar, you would not have had the same aftereffect reaction.

Maybe the memory loss might be attributed to the actual event though.  I would imagine a few brain cells dying off under those circumstances.
  
Perhaps. Well put.

I have thought about that, questioned what it was that really happened to me. I guess I can't say for sure. Only go by the doctors input. There is a good chance that some of this is psychosomatic. I don't really know.

 
4/30/09 1:59 AM
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pats0
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I found this cool free course from Yale about death: http://academicearth.org/courses/death

I just started listening to it and it is very interesting.
4/30/09 7:14 AM
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gw99
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Russfromlowell - 
gw99 - you are energy. When your body stops working you life energy is released back into the "WORMS".





FIXED




Realizing you are trying to be funny .....

We are talking of two completely different things, you and I.

You speak of the remaining husk as if it were all of your being. Which it is not.

I speak of the energy that makes you, you. Which can not be eaten by worms or bugs.

Hope that clears things up for you.
4/30/09 10:48 AM
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seg
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 LMAO at the chick who stole Cycklops' soul being worried about dying. 

If you really want to know, just ask your husband, he's already dead inside.
4/30/09 1:31 PM
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meow mix
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 Please move along if you have nothing constructive to add.  Thanks.
4/30/09 2:35 PM
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liquifaction
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seg -  LMAO at the chick who stole Cycklops' soul being worried about dying. 
If you really want to know, just ask your husband, he's already dead inside.
feel the love
 
4/30/09 2:42 PM
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liquifaction
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 everything in life is risk assessment.  I gave up my motorcycle after my last crash because I knew I couldn't be trusted on it anymore.  If you are freaking out about it remeber the riskiest thing you probably do (knowing you) is getting a car every day.

That said, even crazy Bill stopped being totally crazy after Japan when he realised his kids were most important.  Maybe you and your husband should take a real look at what you do if you are that worried about it.  He doesn't exactly have a risk free job, risk free hobbies, or lifestyle..... nor would he want that.
4/30/09 2:51 PM
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Zonion
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 Back in the 90's I was reading a book at work - Joseph Weed's "Wisdom of the Mystic Masters," in which he described a Rosicrucian's view of what happens when we die.  A girl at work asked me if she could read it, so I said sure.  It turns out that she was previously in a car accident and died for about 5 minutes before coming back.  After reading the specific part in the book that dealt with this subject, she came to me and was visibly shaken.  She told me about her accident and said that the book described what had happened to her (that's why she was interested in reading it).  Apparently she is one of the people who DO remember vivid near-death-experiences. 

That's just one of many first and second hand examples that have led me to believe that consciousness can and does exist outside the physical body. 
4/30/09 2:53 PM
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Zonion
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 P.S. I'm not trying to convince/preach!  I'm just trying to add something of interest to this thread.
4/30/09 2:54 PM
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GirthVader
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Try Leo Tolstoy - "The Death of Ivan Ilyich" Its short.
4/30/09 2:55 PM
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Baroquen Record
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this is like asking a man with no eyes what color he sees.


what color do you see out of the back of your head? what about out of your foot?
4/30/09 2:59 PM
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Baroquen Record
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gw99 - 
Russfromlowell - 
gw99 - you are energy. When your body stops working you life energy is released back into the "WORMS".





FIXED




Realizing you are trying to be funny .....

We are talking of two completely different things, you and I.

You speak of the remaining husk as if it were all of your being. Which it is not.

I speak of the energy that makes you, you. Which can not be eaten by worms or bugs.

Hope that clears things up for you.


there is no energy that makes you, you. its just your brain and it can be manipulated with small jolts of electricity to turn you into someone completely different. you are your body and that is all. when your body stops turning matter into energy you cease to have any energy and you decay and/or get eaten and your matter gets turned into energy that some other being uses to fuel itself until this sdame thing happens to it.

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