UnderGround Forums
 

Jen >> All this talk about basics.....


6/11/09 4:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
m.g
34 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6203
Bolo,

I hear what your saying but I think there is alot of misunderstanding and assumption regarding how the Japanese do uchi-komi. The japanese method of Uchi-komi is far more diverse and individual then what most people think.

There problem in my view isn't so much with the Japanese system (if there is a such thing) but more so with peoples "assumption" of what exactly the Japanese do when they do such things as uchikomi and creating a training system or tradition base on that assumption.

In other words the problem is people trying to do what the Japanese supposedly do without really understanding or knowing exactly what or why they are doing the things they do.

Basically what I am trying to say is this whole "traditional" way is nothing than a "label" created by Westerners trying to do things in what they "think" is the Japanese way.

When the Japanese do a training method like Uchi-komi they work on a host of different things which may be different then what we think or assume they are working on. And those different things vary from Japanese Judoka to Judoka. When Koga for example does Uchi-komi of Seoi Nage he is likely working on totally different set of skills than someone like Yamashita when he does Uchi-komi of the same throw.

When the Japanese do Uchi-komi they may use it to work on a host of different things yet valuable things, like entry, speed, footwork, kuzushi or off-balancing, even grips (called kumi-kata in Japanese). Uchi-komi is a means to an end and not the end itself. Therefore Uchi-komi, even among the Japanese, is very diversed and variable.

This is why, in my opinion, people shouldn't just "copy" what someone else is doing without truly understanding the "whys".
6/11/09 8:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/11/09 8:46 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5873
I was just waiting for you to chime in! :) I remember you had explained this in the past. I didn't want to get into the details about all that as my point was just that the Russians developed a style that was noticeably different from the Japanese. Though the Japanese are at the top of the judo game, the Russians developed their own way of doing things and I don't feel that the Russian style made judo worse and I believe, in some ways, made certain things better. They redefined "the basics" for themselves. I think as people talk about the basics in the BJJ, I think that example is something they should keep in mind.
6/11/09 11:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cincibill
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/21/06
Posts: 255
There was a saying in weightlifting that was along the lines of "every new training routine is good". Why? Sometimes it may have technical merit, most times it helps keep things fresh and it keeps people from completely quitting. They rationalize that they tried everything else, why not give it a try. Three months down the road they see a little improvement and attribute it to the new routine. They never stop to think they would be even better if they stayed with the basics.

I agree that the basics are where its at, but the "new move from Brazil" has probably kept many a blue belt in the sport.
6/12/09 10:38 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
m.g
34 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6204
Bolo,

Actually I wanted to make that very point but I didn't have enough time.

You're right in that the Russians adapted Judo to fit their culture and personality. Truth-be-told that's how it should be. If I remember correct I think Jigoro Kano, the creator of Judo, says something to the effect that he doesn't expect Judo to be exactly the same everywhere.

One of Jigoro Kano's students, Kawashi, introduced Judo to Europe and essentially devised a method of learning/practicing Judo that was suited to the European way and personality. The so-called European way of doing Judo is based on Kawashi's way which was devised with the European personality in mind.

Nevertheless, I think a big part of "redefining" anything especially something imported from another culture or era is first knowing the "whys". I think it is important to first understand why things are done a certain way or what a certain thing means in the other culture before trying to absorb or adapt it into ones own culture.
6/12/09 1:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5875
Great points.

In BJJ, there tends to be a mentality to adopt or imitate what some "god of jiu-jitsu" says to do or what a new super star does. I think it is important to understand that the use and effectiveness of the technique for a particular individual cannot be taken out of the context of that individual's personality, experiences, and environment.
6/19/09 9:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cincibill
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/21/06
Posts: 265
" In BJJ, there tends to be a mentality to adopt or imitate what some "god of jiu-jitsu" says to do or what a new super star does."

Exactly! Watch white and blue belt competition, its like going to a club where everyone has to dance to the latest song.
6/19/09 11:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 844
It makes sense though. People have this idea that martial arts is about techniques; if you know a better technique then you'll be a better fighter (is the idea). They go to BJJ because they see it as the better art, and want to have the techniques that work best within that art. While that's not a realistic way of looking at it, that's how a lot of people think.

Just ask yourselves, how many times have you heard someone say, after a move was done to them; "I don't know that one/I haven't seen that before."
6/20/09 4:26 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
pitbullxyz
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/20/09 4:27 AM
Member Since: 8/11/05
Posts: 502
"Exactly! Watch white and blue belt competition, its like going to a club where everyone has to dance to the latest song."Naw, totally disagree with this statement. The 'gods' of bjj all have such a varied game now even amongst them and most white/blue could do anything and be accused of copying someone. For example Roger has a great mount, palm up palm down choke. Mendes brothers do 50/50, Xande has great judo and a great leg underhook sweep. Marcelo does x-guard, Telles has a great turtle guard, Sergio Moraes has a great half guard and Michael Langhi does pretty much only spider guard. Braulio uses De La Riva guard a lot and Victor has a great flower sweep from closed guard. Roberto Tozi uses smash passes, Kayron uses collar chokes and hip bump sweeps and so and so on. There really isn't a latest 'dance' so much as just people trying to do jiu-jitsu. It's hard to bash competitors really, everyone is just trying to win and grow their bjj.
6/20/09 12:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/20/09 12:46 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5895
No one is bashing competitors, but rather pointing out that many people try to imitate every bread and butter technique of every top competitor, even if some of these techniques are "basic". Here's the problem with that....For example, many people were looking to have good back control like Marcelo Garcia. In later competitions, Marcelo was still finishing people off with the back control and rear naked choke, but he also started to tap people with the guillotine. Instead of continuing to improve their back control and getting it to a high skill level, some people moved onto the guillotine as soon as they saw Marcelo finishing people with it. Then before getting really proficient at it, people will see Roger's cross choke from the mount, drop their practicing of the guillotine, and start working on the cross choke.

What some students need to realize is that top competitors like Marcelo, Roger, Jacare, etc... do not rush out and try to add the latest popular technique to their game. This is what I have said for a long time- people who are skilled evolve as a result of necessity and experience, not because of popularity or what someone else says. I'm not saying that it's not OK to get some ideas or inspiration from other practitioners, but that is different from following every trend.
6/20/09 2:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
pitbullxyz
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/11/05
Posts: 503
I agree with you about necessity, as the popular saying goes, 'competition breeds success.'However, I don't see many people rushing out and adding the latest popular technique to their game. I train at a big academy and it seems like most guys, upper belts included, have been doing the same thing day in day out. If anything, most people have a hard time 'evolving' or adding anything to their game even at the temporary fad level. On top of that, the number of people who train and who are up to date on the latest Mundial winners and newest moves are far and few between. It takes a lot of effort for most people, even bjj practitioners, to sit through a 10 minute jiu-jitsu match and pick up on the sweeps, passes, mount escapes, etc. top competitors are doing.

I wish more people knew about top competitors outside of Marcelo (who just came out of retirement in the gi), Jacare (who's been out of gi competition since 2005) and Roger. I actually think trends in bjj as far as practitioners following them are rare. For example, I can't think of anyone I know even trying 50/50 at my gym or Kron's palm up palm down collar choke.
6/20/09 3:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/20/09 3:23 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5896
You are correct in saying that most people have a hard time adding anything to their game even at the temporary fad level. That's because to add something into your game that works consistently takes a lot of practice and hard work! Most people who into the fads will try a new fad and surprise their classmates a couple times. After a few times, the classmates catch on and the surprise factor is gone, those people tend to stop doing it. I think you can see the interest in the latest fad by the rush of people who get the latest video or seminars to learn the popular technique of the moment. Whether they practice and apply it class is a whole different story. Also remember, most people's mentality of a good technique they learned in a video or seminar is based on how little need to practice and be able to pull it off in action.

Look at one gym or just your own gym may not give you a view of what is happening in the overall population. For example, Joe said that many of young guys from Brazil who came to compete at the Worlds tried to do the 50/50 on him when they came to roll at his school.
6/20/09 4:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
pitbullxyz
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/11/05
Posts: 504
Yeah, I wouldn't know about video sales and or book sales obviously since I'm not in the business. As far as seminars go however, I see and hear about more seminars from people who are far removed from the latest competition, (Roy Harris, Chris Brennan, Royler, etc) then from active, top competitors. Even books actually, you see a lot of them being written by the older generation (Helio and Carlson come to mind) over young competitors.

I hear what you're saying about my own gym or even one gym, but I can even reference the competitions I enter in. Even amongst my competitors and my teammates competitors, I'm not seeing these fad technique often. Among all of the people who practice bjj across the U.S.A, what percentage of them buy videos/books, watch matches, attend seminars by the latest bjj gods and try the techniques themselves? I'm saying not many. I think it's easy to go on a forum and because a thread about 50/50 got 40 replies (many from the same people) assume that academies across the country are packed with students ready to try latest fad techniques.

In the end, I think it comes down to bjj being a combat sport. It's not like just picking up a popular dance move, or the latest golf clubs because Tiger uses them, or wearing the latest fashion because a celebrity is wearing them. Most people are trying to survive and adding fad techniques just isn't that easy in my opinion. I know you used to run your own academy and I don't know for sure obvioulsy, but what percentage of your students would come in and try the latest Feitosa pass or Fabio Leopoldo sweep (Mundial winners around the early 2000s)? There really is no right or wrong here in that you're saying some people jump on fads, and I'm saying, "sure, but not often from my experience."
6/20/09 4:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/20/09 5:05 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5897
I remember when Margarita was not actively competing a few years back, he was to do a seminar in the southern CA area and only 3 people showed up. Once Margarita got back into competition and started winning again, he conducts a seminar in the same area and tons of people show up. Like said, whether a student tries to apply what he learned is a different story, but I think the turn out when Margarita was not popular versus when he was popular says something about people's mentality.

But your view does actually point out something that I agree with. I think that a many people don't religiously follow the trends. However, those who do tend to be the most vocal about it. I see this "silent majority" in many situations.
6/20/09 5:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 849
Damn, that would be awesome to be one of the 3 people at a Margarita seminar!
6/20/09 5:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5898
He got pissed off that there were so few people and sent them home.
6/20/09 5:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
pitbullxyz
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/11/05
Posts: 505
Haha, that's a good story about Margarida! Yeah, 'silent majority' is a good term. Like in business, school, social gatherings in general, it's always the 'vocal' ones who tend to dictate perception.

Actually, similar story to show the flip side of the Margarida scenario. My instructor is good friends with a competitor who won the Pan Ams recently. All week long, my instructor told the class that this competitor would be coming in during the end of the week to train with us and make sure not to miss out (he'd show sweeps, passes if asked, etc). Keep in mind, this was just a regular class, not even a paying seminar! Long story short, the class size increased by 2 members on that day. One of my buddies even told me he wanted to go, but he went to lift weights instead!
6/20/09 10:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 856
Bolo - He got pissed off that there were so few people and sent them home.


D'oh. I'd have more respect for him if he hadn't.
6/23/09 3:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
m.g
34 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6212
I think pitbullxyz makes a very good point.

I've come to realize there is a big difference between the true hardcore Bjj participates and the internet crowd. The former really don't get caught up or lost in the latest trends etc whereas as the latter is immersed in it.

I've found that most of the people who go to the academy I go to do NOT follow the who's who of Bjj. They don't buy instructional DVDs, they don't buy instructional books, they don't follow the competitive sport and they don't know about the top notch competitors. They don't really care.

Most of the people in my academy, if they do pick up the so-called "trendy", they learn them from the very few classmates who happen to get them from DVDs, books, watching top notch competitors etc.
But apart from those rare occassions most of my classmates learn and work on things my instructor/coach teaches. And most of the things we work on many would consider "basic" Bjj.

Heck I have to "explain" to most of the people who go to my academy who people like Roger Gracie or Andre Galvao or Kron Gracie are; most of the don't even have a clue.
6/26/09 8:48 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JasonKeaton
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/12/02
Posts: 3309
Sorry about my earlier joke

I had an interesting experience with this exact topic the last two days.

First, one of my friends, a black belt, recently moved to a school that has a big competition team. That had a guy recently win the worlds. My friend was telling me about these "competition sweeps". He said all the competitors are doing it and that he was behind the times. I asked him what he meant and he tolds me about this DLR variation. I was pretty sure I had seen this before and since I knew a guy that trained at this same school, I had him show me. It was same sweep that was on Bjpenn.com about a year ago and nothing so crazy.

Second, right now at our place we have a 10th planet purple belt(shirt?) I had him show me some of their stuff which is a system it seems to me. I can't really see how it would fit into my personal game but I don;t think people should dispell it so easy since it is not "conventional " BJJ.

Jason
6/26/09 7:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5903
No problem about the earlier joke. On the forum, it's kind of hard to tell when some people are joking around or mocking the discussion.

As far as Eddie's system, I haven't seen a solid reason given for why some believe it won't work well (as long as you have the attributes to do it). The only reason I keep hearing is, "Who in Mundial and Pan Ams is using it?" In my opinion, that is the argument of follower, not an innovator and it doesn't seem to be very analytical of the techniques themselves.
6/26/09 7:37 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 909
The solid reason is that it won't work well by itself. It's a good supplement to existing BJJ for sure, but it gets murky when he says it's not necessary to train with the gi. While he's technically right, it's an odd thing to say when the people who can best make use of his stuff all have gi experience and still spend a lot of time training it.
6/26/09 8:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/26/09 8:13 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5904
As we talked about earlier, people bring life to techniques and systems. From what I have seen of Eddie training and competing, I believe he can make his system work very well. If other people can't make it work as well as Eddie does, I don't think it is a flaw of the system itself.

For example, Joe Moreira is a master at the leg-on-shoulder pass. I am good at that pass, however, I am definitely not at Joe's level when it comes to that technique. If I can't make that pass work as well as Joe does, I don't see it as a flaw in leg-on-shoulder technique itself, but rather my ability to do it. Plus, I don't think I shouldn't work on improving that pass even though a majority of BJJ competitors don't use and like that technique because of their fear of the triangle.

When I talk about being analytical of a technique, I mean, for example, how I analyzed the americana from the mount.
6/27/09 7:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
m.g
34 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6213
Bolo,

You make an excellent point about people bringing life to techniques and systems. Truth be told, no technique or system can possible work apart from the individual regardless of how mechanically sound the technique or system may be.

Techniques or systems simply do NOT exist by themselves. I've never seen a technique or system jump up and demostrate itself in a DVD or book or in an academy floor. Every technique or system successfully performed or used reflects, to some degree, the ability and attributes of the person (or persons) performing or using the techique/system.

So although it may be true that one may need certain amount of physical attributes to make techniques like the rubber guard work or make systems like Eddie Bravo's system work, I'll argue that this is the case, more or less, for most, if not all, techniques and system. I'll go further to say that even if a technique or system could work with little or no help for a person's physical attributes or qualities or abilities, I guarantee it will work even better when it is merged with a person's attributes, qualities, and abilities.
6/30/09 10:52 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JasonKeaton
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/12/02
Posts: 3311
This sort of brings up a question for you Bolo.

The Purple belt( shirt?) informed me they do stretches to gain the level of flexibility needed to perfrom certain techniques.

He did a couple of them and it raised this question: Do you think people performing certain stretches for ruuber guard risk certain posture imbalances? And alsoknee/ hip related issues?

Jason
6/30/09 1:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 938
A big problem with stretching that I've just come across is that it's very easy to compensate for inflexibility in one area by using another area of your body to give you the extra ROM. I'd be concerned that most stretches shown don't take that into account.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.