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TMA UnderGround >> Toughest TMAers


5/22/09 9:16 PM
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oblongo
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Not fighting ability necessarily but pure physical and mental toughness. I've heard Chuck Norris say that his sensei would have them hold a horse stance for a half hour then throw hundreds of punches and kicks then hold the horse stance again for a long time. And apparently, the old time aikido people would make students learn breakfalls by throwing them and letting them figure it out.

That sort of training has to produce hardasses. Which TMA do you think produced the toughest black belts?
5/23/09 1:30 AM
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FlashGordon2002
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Wouldn't this really depend on the instructor?

Anyway, for a TMA that consistently produces hard asses, I would say Judo.

However, I have no experience with knock-down Karate styles but I'd imagine they'd also produce very tough guys as well.
5/23/09 12:23 PM
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RobbieH
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FlashGordon2002 - Wouldn't this really depend on the instructor?



 Some would depend on the instructor...but IMO people are born truly tough...either they stick stuff out or they quit. Just as others have super high pain thresh holds and iron chins and others don't, no matter how much they train. Some guys will be tough no matter what they do...
5/23/09 6:45 PM
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laqueus
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Yeah, I wonder if styles really do produce hardasses, or if they just separate them out. The only way really to tell would be to look at countries with mandatory conscription and see if everyone coming out of their training programs are tough. Israel would be a good place to look.
5/24/09 1:11 AM
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FlashGordon2002
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laqueues - after I posted, I thought about that, too; whether styles made people tough or are self-selecting.

A good example would be Kyokushinkai; I've never taken it but from what I understand, their training is brutal. You have to wonder...does that training make you tough or does it just weed out the non-tough people and leave the tough ones?
5/24/09 2:26 AM
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de braco
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I spent 6 years active in kykushin,there was a large turn over with the class averaging 25 regulars.I don't know if the tougher stayed or the others wouldn't pay to have the crap kicked outa them.
5/24/09 2:47 AM
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laqueus
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Totally, I used to think that Kyokushin and Muay Thai made good fighters, but I'm beginning to rethink that.
5/25/09 12:25 AM
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Skpotamus
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When I was going to my MT gym, they had one helluva turnover rate. The ones that stayed were mentally tough to begin with. The ones that cried and moaned about their shins didn't come back.
5/29/09 12:46 PM
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cdueck
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There is tough people that train that just get tougher from it. Styles like Kyokushin or Muay Thai take a certain amount to toughness to train consistantly. Most styles of martial arts changed the way they train to keep those who are not so mentally tough. That is the only way they can make a buck. If all martial arts were taught the way the were 40yrs or more ago there wouldn't be many people training because they couldn't handle it. A friend of my dads used to teach isshin ryu and someone puked in his class every week. He never had many students but the ones he had could fight like crazy though.
5/29/09 7:15 PM
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laqueus
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I guess that's what make BJJ pretty unique. You can train to a pretty high level of fighting ability without having to be inherrently tough.
5/30/09 10:18 AM
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FlashGordon2002
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laqueus, I think you need toughness at high level BJJ, especially if you consider high level BJJ to encompass Vale Tudo. Whether that toughness is inherent or gets developed by all the training is another question.
5/30/09 12:40 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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A lot of TMA guys might be 'tough' by certain definitions. Many, though, waste their time doing stuff which does not improve their ability to fight. There are guys who are naturally pretty good fighters and pretty tough, and the style or being TMA doesn't really matter. Naturally high pain tolerance, genetics, farm-boy strength, good reflexes. They could beat you using ballet or square dancing, forget about a martial art.

5/30/09 4:25 PM
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laqueus
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Edited: 05/30/09 4:28 PM
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Well that depends, a lot of the advantage of BJJ is an attack method people just aren't familiar with, so even if you're a wimp there's a decent chance that you can get the fight to the ground and finish it with ease. Certainly if you're going up against others with grappling experience the toughness will be necessary.

Also, the confidence I got with doing grappling (only formally started training BJJ recently, but before that I still fought with a BJJ philosophy) I think definitely made me tougher, at least mentally. If I'm going against someone I know I can beat, even if I get hit hard I can take it in the process of finishing the fight. If it's someone I don't think I can beat, I don't react nearly as well to a hard hit, so there's some toughness I still need to develop, but I have more than I had before. I suppose that could come from some other styles, like Judo, but if you do Kyokushin or Muay Thai you'll be getting seriously bruised up before you get the confidence, BJJ doesn't do that.
5/30/09 5:17 PM
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FlashGordon2002
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laqueus - I think you're right about BJJ in that it seems to "ease" you into things and the practitioner gets tougher with time whereas other styles like Judo, Muay Thai, Kyokushinkai, etc. seem to just throw you into things so it's almost like going through a period of "hazing" during which you either decide to stick with it or quit.
5/30/09 7:14 PM
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cdueck
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There is things about BJJ that are alot tougher than you are giving credit to. How many times have you had someone with crushing weight on you in side control and you thought you were going to die. After you tap because you thought your ribcage was going to explode they laugh and tell you it's embarassing to tap from a control.
I know alot of guys that could handle a hell of an ass kicking on there feet but can't handle a nice tight grappling situation.
I also am consitantly more sore after a grappling session than I am after a hard sparring session(I train in Kyokushin and have boxed for years). If BJJ was that easy on you then schools wouldn't have as high a turn over rate as they do.
5/30/09 7:32 PM
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laqueus
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It has never seemed that tough to me. I guess it might differ for different people, but there is still the fact that a white belt can enter the absolute division and not worry about getting seriously injured. Imagine a white belt going into an absolute weight/skill division for Kyokushin. That's a disaster waiting to happen. I think that's a fair measuring point.
6/1/09 11:09 AM
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Ogami Itto
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I think Chuck was the legit real deal, yes, in hard traditional Korean karate.

Got mad love for the judo guys, of course.
6/6/09 9:32 AM
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JamS
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 GSP
6/7/09 11:00 AM
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JesseL
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The days of old produced alot of tough ass karate fighters I mean 50s 60s early 70s People like Skipper Mullens ,Frank Smith, Joe Louis, Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace to name a few
7/24/09 1:07 PM
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Takedown
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Harold Howard
7/26/09 12:10 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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 As far as 'making people tough' let me ask, 'how do you build a callus?'.

Do you try to build a callus in one day? No you apply stress at a manageable level or just a little more over a long period of time. Otherwise you make a blister.

So I'm not a big advocate of the instructor beating or harming the student, pushing them down into a split like Sumo guys do, or punching them in the body or slapping them.

I'd rather help them learn what makes you tough and also do things to help you self-toughen at your optimal rate. Not eveyone reacts the same.

So as far as 'toughest' acting or training, like I said Sumo is pretty brutal. Not sure how effective it is in toughening them up or if it just weeds out the people who are a bit weak, and the guys left are more naturally tough.

My wife is 'tougher' than I am as far as dealing with stress and life and upsetting things. I might be able to run farther, or bike longer or do more situps, but she is tough inside. That's hard to get, especially if you're a worrier or you tend to ruminate about stuff. Women can just 'cry' and feel better, men bottle it up, and so forth.

$0.02



8/12/09 10:15 AM
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Outkaster
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cdueck - There is things about BJJ that are alot tougher than you are giving credit to. How many times have you had someone with crushing weight on you in side control and you thought you were going to die. After you tap because you thought your ribcage was going to explode they laugh and tell you it's embarassing to tap from a control.
I know alot of guys that could handle a hell of an ass kicking on there feet but can't handle a nice tight grappling situation.
I also am consitantly more sore after a grappling session than I am after a hard sparring session(I train in Kyokushin and have boxed for years). If BJJ was that easy on you then schools wouldn't have as high a turn over rate as they do.


I know for example Judo was a lot tougher than stand-up arts because I was 32 when I started it and the work-out was so tough so much I was too sore to sleep after doing mat work. A lot of it comes down to what you can handle and other injuries that you might have had.
8/17/09 4:08 PM
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shen
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Outkaster - 
cdueck - There is things about BJJ that are alot tougher than you are giving credit to. How many times have you had someone with crushing weight on you in side control and you thought you were going to die. After you tap because you thought your ribcage was going to explode they laugh and tell you it's embarassing to tap from a control.
I know alot of guys that could handle a hell of an ass kicking on there feet but can't handle a nice tight grappling situation.
I also am consitantly more sore after a grappling session than I am after a hard sparring session(I train in Kyokushin and have boxed for years). If BJJ was that easy on you then schools wouldn't have as high a turn over rate as they do.


I know for example Judo was a lot tougher than stand-up arts because I was 32 when I started it and the work-out was so tough so much I was too sore to sleep after doing mat work. A lot of it comes down to what you can handle and other injuries that you might have had.




Whatever your body gets used to is the one that is "easier".

If you do just Muay Thai (or any other stand up art) and do a hard BJJ class you will feel like you are gonna die. If you do BJJ for a long time & do your first Muay Thai class, you are gonna feel like you are gonna die.
9/4/09 5:23 PM
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Outkaster
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Yeah that is probably true but I found Judo and grappling to be so much more scientific in the approach. There are so many more facets to it. That is how it least seemed to me?
9/4/09 7:08 PM
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cdueck
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You have a good point about which everone you are used to is the easiest.
In my experience I am much more sore after a really hard grapplng session than a striking session. I have a lot more immediate muscle sorness(aches and pains:neck,shoulders,knees) after grappling.

As for Judo until you get used to getting thrown it is pure hell. Even standing randori in judo I find I'm not as sore as a good wrestle.

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