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Karate UnderGround >> Different styles of punching?

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6/1/09 11:14 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Anybody got a real lock on how the different styles, TMA, modern sports combat, punch? Punching is the bread and butter of martial arts, I think. What's the difference, in your opinion, between a karate punch, a kung fu punch, a boxing punch, a Thai punch, a wing chun punch, etc?
6/1/09 12:11 PM
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cdueck
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In Karate punches are meant to be powerful and destructive -(one punch one kill)

Boxing punches are meant to be fast and hard but with a protected hand. This means without wraps or gloves most boxers will break there hands if they hit anything hard. Boxing teaches you how to punch but not how to hit.

Wing Chun punches are meant to be fast and extremely overwhelming. They can be powerful as well but generally after a well place counter. The basis of wing chun is the chain punch which is lighting fast but not very powerful.

I don't know to much about the punching of Muay Thai or other styles of kung fu so I can't give an oppinion on those.
6/1/09 12:45 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Appreciate it. Do you think, universally, all punches come from the back foot and hips?
6/1/09 3:42 PM
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cdueck
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Any fighting style that wants to generate power has to focus on the feet and hips. If your feet aren't rooted you can't hit hard, if you don't activate your hips in a punch you won't hit hard.

I just watched the last ufc last night and during the Sherk fight Joe Rogan commented that Sherk didn't seem to have knock out power. After that I started watching Sherks punches and he has almost no hip movement in any of his punches even his hooks. If you watch Machida all of his strikes generate in his hips even his kicks.
6/1/09 5:18 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Oh, wow. Thanks, Martin.
6/2/09 3:56 AM
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Skpotamus
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Personally, every TMA art I've studied/seen (TKD, Isshin Ryu Karate, Gojo Ryu, Kempo, Shotokan, JKD, ) had much weaker, slower punches than boxing. The hardest TMA puncher I've ever felt was a heavyweight shotokan guy that powerlifted, he stepped into the punch as he threw it, using good technique, was on par with a cruiserweight boxer's jab.

Boxers punching without gloves and wraps is dangerous, but no more so than any other person punching without wraps and gloves. Any type of bare handed punching can break your bones, but mostly that comes from hitting with the weakest bones in the hand (meta carpals behind pinky and ring fingers - called a boxers fracture). A little bit of hand conditioning goes a long way in protecting your hand. Doing pushups on your knuckles, punching a makiwara, working the heavy bag without wraps or gloves (lightly at first) will make your hands a lot stronger and capable of landing hard punches without breaking, IME. Also, I've found that when punching without wraps or gloves, picking specific targets and going lighter results in a lot less damage to your hand. Someone with trianing and a good punch can throw a cross with 70% power and still hit harder than most street punks. Put that punch on the nose or jaw line and you get good results, again IME.

Personally, I've never been a big fan of dempsey's book. Dempsey himself was known as a brawler and cheater, not a technical boxer. He fought every professional fight he had with gloves and wraps on (and listening to his manager, some with items in the gloves like plaster, etc). Watching what few fights you can find of him, he didn't seem to punch from outside range except for big hooks.

As always, YMMV
6/2/09 8:35 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Well, shoot, KCatch, let's get into it, man. Tell me more about the origin of power in the tai chi chuan technique? What was Ikehara doing. I mean, just because it worked for Ikehara doesn't mean it'll work for anyone else.

My basic understanding of the power of punching comes down to:

-starts in the back foot, especially the big toe and ball of the foot, pushing off

-hips rotate

-continues from the shoulder

-snaps and returns

That's for an overhand, a basic trailing hand punch, could be a lunge punch in karate. What I am imagining is there are a lot of variations on these basics based on style, experience and even preference or just plain quirks. Don't you think? I mean, I think it's wing chun or at least one style of wing chun where you really drop your hips as you punch, lowering yourself as you punch - could be wrong there. See, my experience is in a karate teacher who also boxed and combined the two in a fairly common kickboxing type environment. Over the years I've learned a bit more about punching, but not a lot.
6/2/09 9:15 AM
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jw234
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Personally, I've never been a big fan of dempsey's book. Dempsey himself was known as a brawler and cheater, not a technical boxer. He fought every professional fight he had with gloves and wraps on (and listening to his manager, some with items in the gloves like plaster, etc). Watching what few fights you can find of him, he didn't seem to punch from outside range except for big hooks.
As always, YMMV


Never been a fan of Dempsey's book or Dempsey himself? If it really is the book, what's your beef with it?
6/2/09 11:42 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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One thing to remember is that a lot of people have been KO-ed by a 'dinky little poke' which had the right timing, angle and targeting. Having said that, trying to consciously reproduce that kind of KO is not easy, if at all possible.

Some guys who look like they're throwing 'hard punches' are just using their arms and upper body and sometimes lots of 'tension', which may actually slow them down.
6/2/09 12:23 PM
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cdueck
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Punching hard is all about body mechanics. Once you know the proper mechanics of a punch then you've got to shadow box with it. I've had my best result with power increases after doing lots of shadow boxing before I ever hit a bag. Some people are born with power in their hands but everybody can learn to hit really hard it just takes time and lots of effort.
6/2/09 2:33 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Sure. But the methods can't possible be the same. Hell, not all boxers agree on each aspect of punching.

Quick poll: where'd you learn to punch and how do you do it?
6/2/09 10:48 PM
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cdueck
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The mechanics of a power punch is almost always the same.

You need to have your feet activated yet rooted. Then the power travels up your leg to your hips and is unleashed like a coiled spring(if you snap your hips hard a relaxed arm will whip out to full extension). Regardless of how people say to get a powerful punch watch how there body moves. You will be surprised that most of them move quite similar. The delivery might be different but the body motion will be the same.

I learned how to punch from boxing but I really learned how to hit and generate power from kyokushin. I was blessed early in my training to have a high level shihan that was all about body mechanics and power.
6/3/09 9:49 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Appreciate the insights, fellows. Keep 'em coming.
6/3/09 6:12 PM
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truckman9
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Its in the hips man its in the hips
6/3/09 6:36 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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KyokushinCatch - youtube "fa jing" and/or "earl montaigue" to see an example. earl's a bit of a kook, but he does demonstrate fa jing (roughly translated, "sudden power") fairly well.

 Though Montaigue might do some good stuff, his idea of fa jing are not worth following, imo. Try Chen X Wang and Fa Jing to see the real thing.


6/4/09 11:37 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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According to those who seem to know, what is happening in -some- short range punches, done with setup against a stationary target is similar to this:

1. A bow and arrow, where the body functions as a bow, and the fist as an arrow. The skeletal and viseral muscles and pelvic floor muscles store energy (according to them), and then release it. This purportedly sends the arm traveling at a speed in excess of that which can be achieved by arm muscle propulsion alone. In fact they claim the arm muscles are not and should not be involved (except maybe at the very end??). By visceral muscles, those doing it claim that the muscles under the skin supply some of the movement. A similar thing can be seen when a horse 'shivers', usually to shoo off flies. It uses the integument musculature. It's not clear if the claims are accurate in humans, since any sub-cutaneous muscles are thought to be the involuntary type..

2. The movement seen when you slam the support levers closed on a ladder. This causes the angle of the ladder to open quickly and with no 'give'. The speed of the support levers closing on a step ladder would presumably open the ladder faster than muscular action, and with no 'give', all the force could be transmitted into the target.




6/11/09 9:24 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Hmmm!

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