UnderGround Forums
 

Jen >> Posture in the guard and controlling the hips


6/8/09 6:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/08/09 6:29 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5856
 
When it came to posture when in the closed guard, I have heard so many people talk about controlling the hip. Some people would put their palms on their opponent's hips and say that they were controlling the hips. I never understood this as it never made sense to me.

When I hear the control, I think of the ability to stop an opponent from moving freely. When an opponent placed his hands on my hips, never felt this stopped my hips from moving freely. Try it. When in a partner's closed guard, put your palms on their hips and push down. Now have your partner lift his hips up like he is trying to bridge with his ankles crossed around you. Did you arms stop that movement? Now have your opponent scoot his hips out to one side or the other. Where your arms able to stop him from moving?

The hips are surrounded by some of the largest muscle groups. Your center of gravity is close to your hips. I feel that it is a very odd idea that a person's arms can control that area, especially when you are kneeling with your butt to your knees which forces most of your strength to be generated from the waist up.

So what does putting your hands on the hips control? Not much, in my opinion. Some people may say that you can't be armlocked when your arms are in that position. Sure, that is because the elbow is not in the correct position to do the armbar, not because you are controlling his hips. In addition. that hand position puts the vertical plane of the hands too close to the vertical plane of the head which makes it very easy to break down that posture. So as you avoid one thing, you have sacrificed another.

Many people also talked about controlling the hips when passing the guard. This didn't make sense to me because when I looked at, for example, the torreando guard pass (grabbing the gi pants and push the legs aside), I would think, "Where's the controlling of the hips in that since you are grabbing the pants by the knees?"

My instructor, Joe Moreira, also used the the term "controlling the hips" when he talked about passing the guard. In the past, I interpreted this as the need to hug, squeeze, or pinch down on the opponent's hips somehow in an attempt to stop him from moving freely. Especially when it came to his leg on shoulder pass, he talked about controlling the area from the hips to the knees (essentially the upper leg). Now with my understanding of postural alignment, when I recently felt Joe demonstrate this technique on me, I felt that controlling the hips was not as accurate of a term. What I felt Joe do was create postural deviations in my body.
6/8/09 7:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Eel
6 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 847
I know in my old Chinese martial
arts class, we were taught to control
the next 1 or 2 joints down from the
primary target. So, if we were
controlling the hips for a
guard pass, then we would
try and control the neck
or we would try and control
his knees. Of course there
was no guard passing in that class,
but the principle was the same.
6/8/09 8:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5857
As far as being in the closed guard, I'm not sure how that principle applies. Most traditional forms of posture aren't controlling the neck and I'm not sure how one would define controlling the knees.

Anyway, I just wanted to give people some food for thought as I felt that term wasn't very accurate and has often led some students to actually form some bad habits.
6/9/09 4:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cdog1955
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 965
I have thought a lot about this and agree the term isn't correct, i do think you gain SOME control over the hips, and limit the control they have with their hips.
6/9/09 5:04 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5860
With what I was talking about originally, I am referring to using your hands and pushing on the hips. If you feel you have some control over the hips, what movements are you preventing? Most techniques from the closed guard involve hip movement that is a spin, lift/bridge, or scoot. I don't see how pushing on the hips with the hands stops any of that.
6/10/09 2:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Gimp
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/3/04
Posts: 2635
I have always thought that placing your hands on the hips is something you do to help you to uncross the ankles, not to control their hips.

Controlling their hips inside closed guard occurs in one of two ways:

1) Staying straight on to them. If they try to make an angle, you square up.

2) Pinching their hips between your knees and elbows. Although this is not something I do personally I have seen it taught.

In my (limited) experience controlling the hips is something you do more when passing the open guard than inside the closed guard. For example you obviously limit their hip movement when you are doing the double underpass. When you pin their ankles/feet during torreando it severely limits their ability to shrimp away from you (although they are free to shrimp toward you and go to turtle).
6/10/09 3:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5865
Yes, if you pinch their hips between your knees and elbow (and your upper body covers the top), you are controlling their hips and limiting their mobility.

In my opinion, if you are following them, you aren't really controlling them, but rather just matching them move for move. I don't feel you've controlled the hips, but rather stopped whatever technique that results from an angle change between you and your opponent. If a person can move freely and you need to match him constantly, that doesn't seem like you have a lot of control. Maybe it's just semantics, but that's what I think if when I think of the term control. I'm not saying that you have to completely immobilize your opponent, but I would think that you have to at least be able to prevent certain movements from happening in order to claim that you have control over that body part (like what you said with the double under pass).
6/11/09 11:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cincibill
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/21/06
Posts: 256
Mike,

I have seen it taught that one must push/post straight armed on the Iliad Crest. Years ago I asked what to do when people did this and you showed me a sweep that you do whenever someone raises up to put their knee in center.

Does that push on one Iliad Crest cause a deviation?

Its not just semantics, the devil is in the details and we need to understand if the desired effect is to deviate, temporarily freeze the hip, protect the arm or maintain some spatial relationship between the hip and the passers shoulders.

It seems to be taught alot, maybe Gracie basics tape. If I'm not mistaken, Roy Harris had a guard passing post 1) base 2) posture 3)control hips 4) open legs 5)control hips, 6) pass over, under or around.
6/12/09 10:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/12/09 10:33 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5881
Pushing on the crest of the hip by itself doesn't really create any significant deviation. I believe that is done in conjunction with the pushing of the knee on the opposite side in an attempt to decrease the bodies ability to compensate when the pushing of the knee creates external rotation at the hip joint. But that is an attempt to open the legs as pushing on the hip alone doesn't really control the hips.
6/15/09 10:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
zade
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/26/05
Posts: 1
hi .
I have been reading your forum for many years and i always enjoy reading your material bolo.

Here is what i like to do.
I start with both knees kneeling .what i like to do is start in base and posture .Both hands grip the pants elbows in when he is flat on the mat.
Then i have to time it so i can quickly lift his hips up and jam both knees underneath him so he is sitting on my lap making his lower back lift off the ground.
now if he wants to move the hips it is more difficult so he usually feels he needs to open his legs to move his hips.when he opens i start to pass.
also when his hips are on the floor and my knees are on the sides of his hips the angle is smaller from his knees to his chest making it easier for him to break my posture with his arms and legs.
when i change to putting him on my lap the angle is bigger from his knees to his chest and its harder for him and what happens if you have good posture the guy will be hanging off of you.he will be doing more work than me and i take my time from here.I have more details to open his guard after that.
some people like to control by having no posture and tight on the chest with the elbows in and follow the other person.This way seems like good control but i think it may be harder to pass with both knees on the ground and is kind of stalling.
So by putting him on my lap, i can hold his hips on me.then if he tries to move the hips to the side he needs to slide off of me first before he touches the mat therefore he has less space to move his hips outand create space and angles.
What i find is people will will open the guard to some type of spider guard/open guard but there guard is flat with limited hip movement.
lets say you go for double under pass.once you secure the legs and grip .the detail i like is pull him on to your lap to lift the hips of the mat making the pass in my advantage.so i basically do the same thing in the closed guard.
i hope this helps in some way.please tell me what you think.
6/16/09 6:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/16/09 6:46 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5888
There many forms of posture and methods to uncross the ankles. There are some instructors, not all, who teach their students to control the hips by placing both palms on the hips and saying that controls the hips. I simply wanted people to re-examine that technique and see if it actually does what it claims it does. Not only do I not think it does what some people say it does, but I feel that placing both palms on the hip actually gets you in worse trouble.

All the input from everyone has been good. So far, no one has explained how placing the palms on the hip actually controls the hips which has me believe that most people also do not see how it can control either.

In my opinion, control cannot be achieved without creating a postural deviation. Well, I guess it can, but it would take a lot more strength or body weight.

------

zade,

The reason why you feel you have better control when you place your opponent's butt on your lap is because you are creating a postural deviation. That one is actually pretty subtle. That position causes the pelvis to go more anterior and also increases lordosis. Once the pelvic angle goes too high and there is excessive lordosis, the power in the legs decreases dramatically.

Now here's a bonus for you....How to begin to counter the method that you use is to first neutralize the tilt of your pelvis and decreases the lordosis. This is done by contracting the glutes like you are tucking your pelvis when your hips are placed on his lap. But when you do this, your hips must move like their are sliding up your opponent rather than trying to pull him down. When you contract your glutes and tuck your pelvis, your pelvic angle does not increase and the excessive lordosis is removed. Now power returns to the legs and it will not only be easier to move, but also you will have more power in your legs to push and pull your opponent.
6/16/09 10:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cincibill
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/21/06
Posts: 262
Mike,

If the passing person distorts you, but you correct the lordosis prior their opening your legs, is that a great advantage for the bottom player?
6/16/09 10:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
zade
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/26/05
Posts: 2
Thank you,i like this postural deviation theory,every advantage helps.
in regards to the hips on lap in the closed guard.yes their hips slide up my knees like like a ramp and the position gets deeper with my knees tucked under the lower back.
I find when this happens ,most guys are gripping and are hanging off of me.there upper back shoulders and head come off the mat and i let them hang on.

they are not thinking about about their whole body as they only try to pull with the arms and legs.

I will try out what you wrote,thanks for the tip.

Interesting thread, I would agree that palms on the hips cannot control the hips 100 percent.I often get the biggest guy on top of side control and the lightest guy on the bottom .
First off the little guy has to try to bench press the big huy hands on biy guys chest straight up.this is always difficult.
then the big guy puts both hands either side off the hips ,locks the arms out straight and sprawls his weight.
the little guy can always move the hips up and down no problem.
6/18/09 2:55 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5892
Bill,

Yes, it does benefit the you as the bottom player. I was explaining to zade in regards to countering the technique that he does to when he is the top person in the guard.
6/23/09 3:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ausgepicht
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 37988
TiTTy!
11/29/10 4:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jrv
27 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/13/06
Posts: 256
Bolo - There many forms of posture and methods to uncross the ankles. There are some instructors, not all, who teach their students to control the hips by placing both palms on the hips and saying that controls the hips. I simply wanted people to re-examine that technique and see if it actually does what it claims it does. Not only do I not think it does what some people say it does, but I feel that placing both palms on the hip actually gets you in worse trouble.

All the input from everyone has been good. So far, no one has explained how placing the palms on the hip actually controls the hips which has me believe that most people also do not see how it can control either.





I'll take a stab: I think placing the hands on your partners hips in the closed guard controls the distance between your hips and theirs by seperating your hips and preventing them from closing the gap between your hips and theirs. This helps take the slack out of their legs, so that when you take an angle and switch your grip to press with your forearm in the inside of their knee, there is less "press" needed to break the guard open.

I'm not saying I think this is the best way to break the guard open, but I think that's where you will find the palms controlling the hips. Creating and keeping distance between the top and bottom players hips and torso ( blocking the hip bump sweep as well). I agree that it doesn't do much in the way of preventing bridging up or scooting away movements though.
11/29/10 4:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6375
I don't think it does anything in preventing your opponent from sliding their hips up closer to yours. Have someone place their hands on your hips and see if you can hike your hips up close.
12/3/10 9:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jrv
27 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/13/06
Posts: 257
I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, but I'm unable to move my hips closer to theirs unless I get their hands off of my hips, or unless I collapse the frame of their arms.
12/3/10 7:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6379
Are you referring to someone simply pressing their palms on your hips or someone holding onto your pants?
12/3/10 10:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jrv
27 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/13/06
Posts: 258
Either/or. Like when they press on the hips with their palms or grip the cloth at the hips.
2/13/11 7:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
swiftnhbfighter
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1706
 Putting both arms on someone's hips is retarded and their instructor needs to learn jiu-jitsu befor teaching it.
2/14/11 3:03 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6418
So how do you really feel about it? :)
2/14/11 12:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
swiftnhbfighter
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1707

Lol, sorry Bolo. When I hear these rookie mistakes actually being taught to someone, it irritates me. As the years go by Jiu-Jitsu gets Mcdojo'ed up more and more. It drives me nuts sometimes. I read awhile ago someone was asking about guilotine defense. Everyone starts saying tuck your chin, tuck your chin, I posted the correct way to get out and then all the noobs jump in and say Saulo shows on his DVD set to tuck the chin. How am I gonna argue with Saulo? Lol, while tucking your chin may get you out of the Guilotine just as it is getting started, how many of these knuckle heads are trying to get out as the choke is being put on them. I can guarantee they are ass deep in a guilotine and can't get out. So tucking your chin is the last thing they should be doing. I told them to keep their head up and put their far arm over the person trap and try to get the hand in the middle of the persons back. Then with the other free hand work on breaking the grip. Stack them and circle a little to the right side if your head is to the left.

2/16/11 5:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ryan Thatcher
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/10/00
Posts: 1620
Bolo,

Where do you suggest putting hands in someone's closed guard?
2/17/11 8:54 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
swiftnhbfighter
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1713
Ryan Thatcher - Bolo,

Where do you suggest putting hands in someone's closed guard?

 Are you talking gi or no gi? Cause there is a huge difference in posture for both.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.