UnderGround Forums
 

Jen >> Never doubt Joe and I don't know squat.....


6/12/09 2:49 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/12/09 3:05 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5874
 
Never doubt Joe.....

I have worked a ton on pin escapes. At first, I was using Joe Moreira's system and had great success with it. After having the pin escapes done on each other for years, my students and I also got better and better at pinning. The pinning got so good that certain aspects of the pin escapes were getting shut down and escaping was getting harder and harder.

This resulted in me straying from Joe's exact method and attempting to refine the escapes in a slightly different direction. What I had figured out worked for a while, but our pinning adapted quickly to these changes. As a result, I was at a loss when it came to how to deal with our improved pinning. After trying long and hard to figure out how to solve certain things, I decided that I needed to consult Joe on the matter.

So on Tues. I called Joe and he said he could be up at my place on Thurs.. I planned on doing a private lesson with Joe and then have him do a clinic for me and a couple of my students. I wanted to ask Joe about escapes, however, I planned on doing it in my private lesson rather than in the clinic with my students. Why? Because with my improved pinning, I felt that if Joe could not escape, I didn't want him to feel embarrassed in front of my students.

On Thurs., Joe's plane flight was delayed and issues at the car rental place caused Joe to show up late at my place. No time to do a private lesson and we had to just start with the clinic with my students. So I told Joe that I wanted to go over some pin escape stuff. I told him that if he couldn't get out, that was OK.

Joe let me pin him 100% with his arms completely out of posture. He let me deviate his body and I told him to go ahead and start to escape. Then I proceeded to squeeze the shit out of him. I couldn't believe it when I felt the structure of my pin begin to break and he got out. I wanted to see if he could do it again, so he let me start 100% in the pin again and once again he got out. I squeezed him so hard that you could see the imprint of my shirt on his face and that bastid still got out. During the clinic, I put a 215 lbs. brown belt and a 230 lbs. blue belt on Joe and every time he got out.

I look at my students and said, "I will never doubt Joe's pin escape ability ever again!"

I don't know squat.....

As a began to reverse engineer what Joe did, I learn so many subtle details that I never knew in the past. I realized that one little missing detail (cause) resulted in certain counters that my students and I eventually figured out (symptom). Once I filled in the gap with that the missing details, much of the "new" stuff I had figured out was no longer necessary. Joe's movements and methods were much more economical.

As Joe taught us these little details, I just kept thinking in my mind, "Man, I'm not at smart as I thought. I don't know squat!"

What is funny is that I feel like my pin escapes have come full circle. I started with Joe's stuff, branched out on my own, and then now I am back to Joe. I once felt like I really knew pin escapes well and Joe made me feel like I didn't know anything.

The stuff that my students and I learned put us all in awe. After the clinic, I felt like I was on a mental high. After today, I vowed that I would train with Joe on a much more frequent and regular basis that I have in the past few years.
6/12/09 9:47 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
le0nidis
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 65
Thanks Michael and Joe! OMG! That sh!t was awesome! It felt like I was getting choked from top of side control. I was like WTF?! And I noticed that Joe was following the principles of being aligned when he did stuff. Maybe he looked misaligned at times, but when he wanted to go, he was aligned. This was defintely a real eye opener, but I think with Michael picking Joe's brain, reverse engineering what Joe does, and Joe adding his input, makes for some great jiu jitsu. That was some painful, awesome, good pin escapes.
6/12/09 6:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/12/09 7:10 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5877
Today, I get a voicemail from Joe: "Michael Jen, you bruised my face. I'm going to kick your ass! Give me a call back."

Later, when I called Joe back:

"Is your face sore?"

"No, it's bruised."

"That's my squeezing power!"

"You still couldn't hold me."
6/12/09 7:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/12/09 7:43 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5878
By the way, after the clinic, Joe sat and talked with us all. We talked about a variety of topics and it was interesting to hear his views.....

Joe said that he doesn't really care for being called Master. He said he actually prefers to just be called by his name.

He's been traveling a lot and teaching. He's been all over the US and Europe recently. I asked him if a lot of people ask him to teach pin escapes and mount escapes. He said he gets asked to teach the leg-on-shoulder guard pass a lot. He does get asked about pin and mount escapes a little, but people tend to want more stuff like guard. He said no one asks about pin escapes more than I do.

Joe said that when he looks back at his NHB performances in the past, he doesn't like what he sees. He feels he didn't train as much stand-up as he should have.

Prior to the Worlds, many black belts from Brazil went to train at Joe's school. Joe rolled with all of them (you can guess the outcome :) ). He said that many of the young guys were trying to do 50/50 on him and he just crushed them. He said that the 50/50 may be effective for no gi when you can heel hook, but in gi competition with no heel hooks, use of the 50/50 makes for an incredibly boring match and he didn't find it very effective.

By the way, Joe is 48 years old! I can't believe that in 2 years he will be 50 and still tapping out the young bucks! I asked him about his 8th degree promotion as I said that I was trying to do the math and it wasn't adding up right. He explain to us that he got his black belt before he was 17 and then explained the math in regards to the years for each degree. He said that the Federations had made changes to rules on promotion, so the rules he knew when he was young was not the same as the current rules. He said that the Federation actually changed some of the rules 2 years ago. For example, in the past when you got your black belt, that was automatically considered first degree, now black belt is just black belt and first degree comes later. He said that they have now also changes the time for things like 7th and 8th degree from 10 years to 8 years.

He said that as he gets older, his body may not be able to do they same things like when he was younger, but he feels his sensitivity is sky high now and that mental attribute makes up for the loss of physical attributes.
6/12/09 9:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
le0nidis
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 66
*Types in Renee Ritchie Star Trekisms* Is there a way we can vulcan mind meld with him? *Raises hand like Spock* :)

Yes. It was very cool to have some time to sit with Joe like that. How many times does one just sit around and shoot the breeze and hear stories from Joe Moreira? At least in my world, none, and that was a rare treat. Hope to have many more in the future, and learn the hybridizations of Michael's and Joe's jiu jitsu. It was tough being at work today because I was still in awe and distracted with what I saw Joe doing.
6/12/09 10:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5879
Yeah, I woke up in the middle of the night and had a hard time going back to sleep as I kept thinking about the stuff we learned.

What I also think was interesting was Joe demonstrating other techniques, like his style of pinning and guard passing, I could feel the postural deviations that he was creating and this "feel" was like seeing everything in a whole new light and understand how things work.
6/12/09 10:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cincibill
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/21/06
Posts: 260
"Because with my improved pinning, I felt that if Joe could not escape, I didn't want him to feel embarrassed in front of my students."

Impressive that your game has grown that much, and outstanding that Joe is still far out in front.
6/12/09 10:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5882
It was a very humbling experience. It made me feel like I didn't improve that much. :( When he escaped that pin, I felt like I should have taken off my black belt and put on a white belt. :)

I think it is incredible that after all these years, Joe can still allow me to start in the best position possible and still dominate.
6/13/09 1:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
le0nidis
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 68
Yeah. That was an awesome display to see a pin sunk in 100%, and see Joe just get out. I knew a little bit what it felt like, and it was uncomfortable due to the deviations Michael was putting on me. And to see Joe just get out seemed surreal.

And yes, the pinning he was doing on me was like this solid tidal wave that moved, but had constant pressure EVERYWHERE. very kewl.
6/13/09 7:22 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cdog1955
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 966
What did you feel Joe doing to you to manage the escape?
6/13/09 4:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zero1
38 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1798
 We did extensivly pin escapes about 3 weeks ago at our summer camp with Joe.

His ability to escape is really amazing and a lot of the stuff he does is covered in his books. Many times I looked in his books and found what he taught us. It´s basic but he is a master of the basics.:-)


6/13/09 4:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/13/09 4:47 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5883
I started to review and practice some of the things that Joe went over. I don't feel this is the exact same thing as what he was doing 8 years ago when I was a brown belt. Joe has refined what he does and his game has evolved over the years (which would be logical), however, I don't know if it was done consciously or unconsciously. Just as I felt a need to improve upon the original system that I learned, I feel that Joe has also improved up on it. With certain improvements, I feel things are much more efficient and require less movement than what I felt him do in the past. As I began to review, it was interesting to see how we had taken different directions in certain areas, but also taken the same direction in others.

When I was pinning Joe, I made sure to keep as many 90 degree angles as possible. He understood how to break those 90 degree angles. He had a feel for how to create misalignment in my body. Once I felt the 90 degree begin to break, I didn't feel like I could maintain the pin with my entire body. I felt that I was just using arm strength.

One thing that I also noticed is that Joe has gotten much better at explaining what he does naturally.
6/13/09 11:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5885
Zero1,

Out of curiousity, why did you seek out Joe for pin escapes? For me, having trained with Joe and many other black belts, I could feel that Joe was at a much higher level than everyone else in that area.

For back control, I initially sought out to take a private from Marcelo Garcia since I think he is at the top of the game for that position, even in comparison to my experiences with Joe and other black belts.

Besides me talking about it and a little bit of footage of it on the end of pin escapes DVD, there really isn't any other footage of Joe doing it. So I was just curious why you decided to seek Joe out and study his system. I think it is great that you put in the effort to get him over to there to learn it.
6/15/09 8:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5887
I practiced what I head learned with one of my brown belts this weekend. I am still in awe at how efficient his pin escape system has become. With certain situations, what once took 2 or 3 movements, how just takes 1.

I also began to figure out things that Joe did not teach us directly, but things I felt happening in other areas when he would do an escape on me. I would tell my student, "I felt Joe do this when he was escaping, let's see what that accomplishes." We would then figure out that it would prevent certain counters from happening.
6/19/09 3:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Dougyboy
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/12/08
Posts: 19
You brought up the idea that Joe has refined what he does when escaping. So what I am wondering is how he trains or learns. Is he rolling or drilling for hours each day? Does he mainly train with Black belts or non-black belts? Does he still compete?

I guess what I really want to know is if he mainly learns BJJ subconsciously (through rolling or drills) or consciously through analysis.

How often does he get those "Eureka" moments? what causes it?
6/19/09 3:55 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/19/09 3:58 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5893
In my opinion, when he initially figures something out, it is not done consciously. He does it by feel. One reason he I believe this is because of what I felt when he escaped my pin.

When I first pinned him, I don't think he had come across the exact same thing before. He kind of felt his way through, looking for possible "holes", until he felt the "right answer". I could feel that he was putting a little bit of effort to get out the first time.

When we repeated the exact same thing again, I felt his all his movements much more deliberate and precise, and I felt the escape occur with less effort. He adapted and learned as soon as he finished the escape the first time. So it basically took him 1 rep to adapt.

Once he figures out the answer through feel, he then goes back and tries to figure out how to articulate into words the things he felt in order to teach what he did. he is getting much better at explaining what he does. In past, he had no idea how to explain certain things he did as it was done totally by feel.
6/19/09 7:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cincibill
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/21/06
Posts: 263
Mike,
Sorry if this was already covered.
Is Joe to the point where he recognizes his old system as he has demonstrated it to you so often vs. the little changes he has made these past couple years? Or, does it take you to point it out for him to recognize the change? Or does he not realize the difference because it is all by feel?
6/20/09 3:01 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bolo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5894
I'm not absolutely sure since I never really asked him about that.

From my experience with Joe, you can ask Joe the same question at different times and get different answers, so it gets confusing at times. That's why I tend to look for the principle rather than try to memorize every little technique he does.
6/20/09 2:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
m.g
35 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6211
In my opinion being able to quickly adapt, adjust and improvise with the movements and techniques of a given activity is the essence of true skill in that activity.

In my opinion, it is the person who makes the technique and not the other way around. The principle may be the foundation of a given technique but it is the person who gives life to the technique; it is also the person who makes the principle tangible and real.

As long as Joe has been doing Bjj it shouldn't be a surprise he is able to do the techniques and movements so easily like tying his shoes. Such skill is the fruit of years of experience and mat time.
6/21/09 1:48 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 857
I always worry if I get the same answer multiple times, even if it's from different people. It suggests to me that they don't really understand what they're teaching. Different answers from the same person suggests they know so much about it that they're trying to figure out what's the most pertinent information to deliver.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.