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Weapons UnderGround >> Sayoc Kali or Lynn Thompson?


6/23/09 7:29 PM
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Einux
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Been training, Bjj and Thai for a long time now and am looking into actually learning some FMA. In my location (BFE) there are no schools close so I am just going to buy some DVD's and start from there.

Sayoc Kali looks like a really good system, and I have heard some great things about them.

Im also a long time customer with Cold Steele, and I noticed that Cold Steele's founder Lynn Thompson has a knife fighting set, and from what I have seen from clips on the cold steele website it looks pretty good.

Any suggestions?
6/23/09 9:36 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 06/23/09 9:42 PM
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 Gold standard is Dog Brothers. Get their first series and you need nothing else. As to knife fighting books look into Dwight McLemores 'Bowie and Big knife Fighting'. (Amazon). He's my instructor. System is very good based on saber fighting and FMA principles.

For related stuff, get Marc 'Crafty Dog' Denny's "Die Less Often" videos (2 DVDs) and the Krabi Krabong series he did with Benjamin Lonely Dog Rittiner, for footwork. Those are top drawer in content, philosophy and effectiveness, bar none. I've been into FMA since the early 80s.

   
6/23/09 9:55 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 06/24/09 10:21 AM
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 Just to add, Thompson's stuff is also based on saber fighting and it's no bad. Thing is the Dog Brothers tapes tell you how to train versus various fighting moves, which is far superior. In fact, I'd go so far as to say if you watch nothing else, get the first DB tape Power and watch it and practice it as he describes it's pretty much all you need. If you get half as good at making those shots as Eric you'll be quite formidable. That first series is probably available inexpensively. It's from the 80s and is still the best tape out there.

I've seen the Sayoc videos and they're good, but it's a bit of an odd bird system. They gear up with a multi-knife rig and practice some interesting drills. They train full contact, even a bit more severe than the Dog Brothers, some of them.

You can see one of their drills, toned down a little in the part of the movie 'The Hunted' with Tommy Lee Jones, where he's training the commandos. (drill starts at the 7 min mark in the trailer)


6/24/09 11:21 AM
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Willybone
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I've done two Sayoc seminars, and bought the 3 of 9 DVD.
Since this was all beginner stuff, everything was run like a kata or sinawali (with one partner unarmed), very scripted.
BUT, I really enjoyed the exercises, have committed them to memory, and still run through the movements all the time, both left and right templates, feeder and target.

I liked it the little I did, and it definitely stuck.

6/24/09 11:40 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Willybone - I've done two Sayoc seminars, and bought the 3 of 9 DVD.
Since this was all beginner stuff, everything was run like a kata or sinawali (with one partner unarmed), very scripted.
BUT, I really enjoyed the exercises, have committed them to memory, and still run through the movements all the time, both left and right templates, feeder and target.

I liked it the little I did, and it definitely stuck.

I've seen the 3 of 9 DVD. Brilliant. I really like their idea of target specifics. Could it work in reality? Not sure. On an untrained person it could. But I wonder if it isn't overkill. Those guys are pretty neat, but they sort of train as though they're going to be in a war, in a primitive society without rules, law of the jungle and society frowns on that. Still sounds like fun and they seem like a good group.

6/28/09 10:14 PM
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New2MMA
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The Atienza Kali group just came out with a knife fundamentals DVD. AK is very similar to Sayoc Kali in many ways. I've been training in AK and I like it. Check out their site at www.atienzakali.com
8/4/09 6:49 PM
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Guerrero
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I have the 3 of 9 DVD and I didn't care much for all those drills. I do like the target areas, though. Ray Floro's stuff looks promising; more straight forward.

I bought Sammy Franco's War Blade DVD and I like it. It's pretty simple and straight to the point.
8/11/09 7:03 PM
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BeatKunDo
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Edited: 08/11/09 7:04 PM
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HEY Einux!!!!I train FMA and I would definitely recommend checking out these two DVDs at Budovideos.com- it's by Ron Balicki and the other one has Diana Inosanto ( daughter of Dan Inosanto, One of Bruce Lee's proteges and starred in the Game of Death as the Eskrima Master)http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=17932&cat=&page=1and http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=17981&cat=&page=1Where are you located? You should check out www.ockickboxing.com- That is where I train and it is the only place in OC that teaches Kali 5 days a week.
8/11/09 7:06 PM
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BeatKunDo
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You should do Sayoc Kali! It's sick.
8/27/09 6:46 PM
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Skpotamus
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hugojkd - WidespreadPanic, do the original Dog Brothers tapes cover empty hand vs weapons defense? My understanding is the "Die Less Often" videos cover lots of empty hands vs weapons & even knife vs gun.

Besides running, what do you like for unarmed vs weapons defense?

Thanks in advanced,

Hugo


Michael Janich has a DVD called Counter Blade Concepts that has some good defenses, but he shows them in a pretty sterile drill format. When you go live, they do work well.

The Die less often tapes are the best empty hand vs weapons work I've ever seen. The first DVD is basically a seminar that they shot at a machada gym and then did some polishing on. One great thing they did was they trained everything live. They'd show the techs, then have students try them out full speed with training gear on, Marc Denny would do a voice over of things the students did right or wrong. You could see the progression the students made in during the seminar and see them going from getting stabbed repeatedly to getting the tech's down. Even a knock out or two during the seminar from the tech's. They also cover how to defend your loved ones, something I hadn't seen in a DVD before.

We've padded up and gone through the defenses, and they work better than anything I've seen or felt.


For knife work, check out Southnarc (shivworks.com) He's got the best live style DVD's I've seen. They go hard with full gear on the DVD's, so you can see the gritty, real world version of what he shows working against real pressure and not pre-arranged attacks.

I also recommend getting Michael Janich's book Contemporary Knife targeting, he covers common targets, what happens from a medical perspective when those get hit, and how it affects the human body.
8/31/09 7:07 PM
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membrane
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I'm not writing the following to hurt anyone's feelings. Also other people might find other things valuable than I do and I acknowledge that. But here goes.

I've seen 3 of 9 from Sayoc kali and it was total martial arts fantasy bullshit. Nice and cool if you're into knives and that sort of esoterica. Some people get a kick out of stuff like this and it is good if that's what you're looking for.

The original dog brothers series is a classic. It demonstrates basic mechanics for stickfighting. There is some stuff that I don't like in there (sidestepping drilled in a manner that is not used in fighting, etc). Eric also says that he knows what works (true) and how to train it, but I believe the latter is only partially true. I believe that Eric's excellent fighting skills are very dependent on an enormous amount of actual stickfighting. So don't think you know anything even if you have a good powershot and know Eric's version of the seguidas (combinations of sorts). The best part of this series is the fighting footage. Everyone should have this set, even though it's not the complete answer.

Lynn Thompson's knife fighting series is probably the best series I've seen specifically for the knife. This is because he actually spars in the series and shows stuff that works in sparring. It is in my opinion completely geared towards knife on knife dueling/sparring. Great if that sort of thing is your bag (like the DB series would be for stickfighting). The set has too much knife hype and repetition for my taste and could probably have been condensed to 1 dvd.

The same pretty much applies for the machete set from Lynn Thompson. It has stuff that is very much in the same vein as the DB series but with a machete focus (or single stick from a FMA point of view). Honestly though, if you have the DB series and Lynn's knife fighting set this has very little new information to you.

Ray Floro's knife set has some very unique stuff that can enhance your knife sparring skills. I'm not sold on his way of using the reverse grip, however (opening the hand, sinking only about an inch of the knife, etc.). On the other hand it won't matter if you're not into stabbing steaks, water bottles and cardboard to put up on youtube.

The Shivworks reverse edged methods set is not dueling oriented. It is knife vs. empty hands and nasty, nasty stuff. I think it is suitable eg. for law enforcement for gun retention. Does it make a difference for a civilian to learn this instead of just learning prison shanking (if that's your goal, for some reason). Maybe not. It's good for what it is, though.

I remember seeing some Mike Janich video a long time ago. I can't remember specifics, but from what I recall it was the regular FMA hubud fantasy material.
9/1/09 8:19 AM
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Guerrero
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^^^I just checked out some of Lynn Thompson's youtube clips based on what you posted. I liked what I saw; more straight forward without all of that hubud shit. I would definately rather learn simple techniques (and drills) that I can apply in sparring than a bunch of flashy "tap, tap" flow drills.
9/2/09 5:26 PM
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membrane
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I think Thompson's knife dvds (called "Warrior's edge") would suit you well in that case.

As a side note his training partner in the set is Ron Balicki, who is the son in law of Dan Inostanto IIRC.
9/9/09 7:31 AM
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Steven Lefebvre
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Hello Everyone,

Having trained with and in Sayoc Kali, Floro Fighting Systems, AMOK, etc. etc. I have reviewed countless hours of training DVDs, fights etc. and yes all systems have their merit but few have proven themsleves in real action.

Ray Floro's material is very practical and very proven on both the street and in real combat situations. Sayoc Kali is definitely been proven in street suvrival situations and more and more Tier 1 groups actively work with the Sayoc Tactical group for more CQB development.

Guro Denny's material (Die less often) at times resembles his training in Sayoc, and at times is his own flavor but still decent material to learn from.

Lynn Thompson's material is again decent but could use more cohesive threads that connect the material to make it a more integrated system.

I always enjoy Mike Janichs material very well done and covers a wide breath of ideas.

More to come!

Guro Steve L.
www.bujinkandojo.net
9/23/09 12:21 PM
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krept
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Steve,

I've seen your work and it's very impressive. I have a question about a lot of the stuff I've seen. In MAs like TKD there is a 'point fighting' phenomenon that some people bring into a fight with disasterous results. What I mean is that they are used to getting a solid punch or kick in and resetting.

Some of the sparring I have seen with the knife appears similar to this. I think it's just a reflection of the videos I've seen. What I'm referring to is the training blades used in conjunction with the hockey masks and two people square up and go for very fast (like snakebite fast) shots to vital areas. Once the strike is in, everyone resets.

In the videos by Shivworks and the Dog Brothers, there is the 'sewing machine' style attacks. I guess it could be compared to a prison shanking, but there is a reason behind it - its caveman simple + effective.

I guess what I'm asking is what your opinion on this is and if you guys train somewhat like that. The vid I saw of you was I think at your place, and several of you and Ray sparring in the street. Again, all the sparring I've seen was the one shot, then stop. Not that a hit to the face wouldn't be devestating, I'm just wondering what the plan would be if someone freaks out and shoots in, etc.

THANKS!
9/23/09 6:39 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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I think I said this before, but it helps to remember that finding yourself in a knife-fighting situation is going to be extremely rare, empty-hand, or knife vs knife. Few people are willing to actually stab or cut someone (outside of some bizarre situation like in prison), despite what people fantasize.

Yes, it's artificial to do knife sparring drills where you stop and reset, but the cuts you see Ray Floro doing are lethal, and he's well aware of follow up, but he's demonstrating a particular type of flash attack. With a short bladed weapon, it's the fastest attack you can generate. Add to that his heel-up closing footwork and you've got the best method for that.

As far as the stuff by Lynn Thompson, keep in mind that Balicki is his employee, and is letting him score and letting those moves work. They may look good but I wouldn't be too confident of his methods.

Short sword and bowie knife fighting is basically a lost art. If you're trying to train it, practicing dueling it's going to be once-removed from the 'real thing', so take it as a hobby and not something you'd actually go out in the street and use.

$0.02

9/23/09 7:08 PM
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krept
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Thanks for the insight. I knew there was a lot more depth to their style, I just only have seen those types of videos with the stop/start (in contrast to e.g. Atienza).

I work in a .gov facility ("NO WEAPONS ALLOWED") and have 3 case laws and a citation from the Chief stating that a folded blade isn't a "weapon" per state statute (guns are an absolute no-no). Thus for the majority of my day, the blade is the go-to when tucking tail isn't an option. Hence my interest in the art.

Ironically, about 5 years ago my neighbor had a ghetto bbq on his driveway. Guys started arguing and I looked out the window to witness the bigger guy get stuck 2-3 times. My wife's friend was stabbed once too, but that was her BF at the time. I guess out here in AZ there are a greater than average number of people who carry blades.
9/24/09 11:23 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 09/24/09 11:24 AM
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In the past, krept, I have felt similarly, but now I gravitate to other weapons (cane and tactical flashlight). I no longer feel the knife is a valid weapon of defense, -for me-.  (of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't carry your knife).

Bear in mind that if you use your knife you will be seen as the aggressor and unless you have clear video of someone using superior force (such as a gun) against you, the outcome will be large legal fees and some time spent in jail if you are identified.

With non-lethal weapons you can defend yourself and still live at home - that's my feeling. The cane is a great tool to keep distance and it can function as a stick, and the LED tac-light can perform several functions and be almost as useful in SD as a knife. Yet no one considers these lethal weapons and using them constitutes defense, not offense.

I think it's great to study the knife and stick, but be cautious in your use of them, even if you have certificates providing their legality.

HTH.

 
9/24/09 12:15 PM
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krept
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I hear you brother. Like when CCWing a handgun, I view the knife like a bee's sting in the sense that once it's used things are pretty much done. Like Mas says, "in the gravest extreme."

Less-lethal options are always important to consider though. I've always been fond of Perrin's change wallet as an impromptu sap. Some of the post 9/11 "tactical pens" are pretty nice as well. I had some Fox Labs OC years ago, but tired after carrying it within a week, at most.

cheers
10/2/10 2:12 PM
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supersaiyan
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great stuff
2/8/11 1:05 AM
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FunkNoobiest
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WidespreadPanic,

Thank you for the informative posts. In regards to the Dog Brothers, I am based in Orange County and will likely be learning FMA a couple nights a week at CSW. The instructor learned from Inosanto. Are the classes at CSW going to be materially different in focus from a Dog Brothers-style class?

On a related note, it appears that The Inosanto Academy does have a Dog Brothers-themed class on Saturdays.
Would you recommend attending that class as well?

If you have any ideas of other (possibly better) training options, let me know.
2/8/11 1:20 AM
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FunkNoobiest
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Edited: 02/08/11 1:20 AM
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Sorry for my rudimentary questions. Based on what I saw online, the Dog Brothers have the addition of KK and some other cool things.

Are there some big weaknesses if I emphasize more of a Inosanto-style for now? I really only want to learn FMA for fun and self defense only in the very rare case that someone breaks into my home.
2/25/11 1:51 AM
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Punk
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ttt
2/25/11 12:22 PM
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PoundforPound
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I got to learn a little Sayoc kali from a friend before he moved out of state. Really liked it.

Unfortunately the DVDs don't give the same feel, I think you'd have to find a real life instructor to get good at the system.
7/26/12 5:21 PM
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hugomma
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Skpotamus - 
hugojkd - WidespreadPanic, do the original Dog Brothers tapes cover empty hand vs weapons defense? My understanding is the "Die Less Often" videos cover lots of empty hands vs weapons & even knife vs gun.

Besides running, what do you like for unarmed vs weapons defense?

Thanks in advanced,

Hugo


Michael Janich has a DVD called Counter Blade Concepts that has some good defenses, but he shows them in a pretty sterile drill format. When you go live, they do work well.

The Die less often tapes are the best empty hand vs weapons work I've ever seen. The first DVD is basically a seminar that they shot at a machada gym and then did some polishing on. One great thing they did was they trained everything live. They'd show the techs, then have students try them out full speed with training gear on, Marc Denny would do a voice over of things the students did right or wrong. You could see the progression the students made in during the seminar and see them going from getting stabbed repeatedly to getting the tech's down. Even a knock out or two during the seminar from the tech's. They also cover how to defend your loved ones, something I hadn't seen in a DVD before.

We've padded up and gone through the defenses, and they work better than anything I've seen or felt.


For knife work, check out Southnarc (shivworks.com) He's got the best live style DVD's I've seen. They go hard with full gear on the DVD's, so you can see the gritty, real world version of what he shows working against real pressure and not pre-arranged attacks.

I also recommend getting Michael Janich's book Contemporary Knife targeting, he covers common targets, what happens from a medical perspective when those get hit, and how it affects the human body.

 TTT

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