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TMA UnderGround >> Good snapshot of kenpo lineage!


12/18/09 10:26 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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de braco - Those guys were all tma,the difference is they were ass kickers with well rounded skills instead of actors with fortune cookie quotes.

It's a classic straw-man argument. Draeger was a marine and a one-of-a-kind. Same with Bluming, not sure about his military background. He was a famous scrapper. How do these guys prove your case? They don't. For his era, (late 60s), BL was ahead of his time, wisely saw the money in MA was in acting and made millions. There are only 3 or 4 MA who've ever been real matinee stars (excluding all the chop socky actors). Yes, big 230lb Dutch guys are gonna beat up 5'7 130lb guys most of the time.

And they're not 'TMA', they don't punch air and do kata then go take a shower. If an art or MA practices 'aliveness' it's no longer a TMA. If Muay Thai just kicked stationary pads, and never fought, then they would become a TMA.


12/18/09 11:06 PM
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de braco
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Bluming was a dutch marine.Draeger mastered several ancient samurai sword styles,he was the poster boy of actual tma.Judo with Kimura,along with Karate from Oyama and several others.I think your talking about the chineese styles,because Ishin Ryu,shorin ryu and a good part of shotokan have always had hard contact "alive" training.Lee was never ahead of his time.
12/18/09 11:11 PM
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de braco
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BTW,why do you keep quoting me,we're the only 2 arguing ; )
12/20/09 8:15 PM
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Ogami Itto
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de braco - BTW,why do you keep quoting me,we're the only 2 arguing ; )


Fuck you, and you, and that guy!

Sorry, just didn't want you to get lonely.
12/20/09 11:57 PM
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de braco
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Ogami Itto - 
de braco - BTW,why do you keep quoting me,we're the only 2 arguing ; )


Fuck you, and you, and that guy!


Dateline-Ohio,1985. Kenpo Master Jay T Will was arrested when found in possesion of $750,000 worth of cocaine in his Kenpo karate studio. That's old school right there,Miami Vice style, stat.You think he was able to move that kinda Blow by setting around with his hands soaking in Palmolive.FUCK NO,MAN.They were getting action!Squeezing the peach and evading the storm.TCB BABY
12/21/09 10:44 AM
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Ogami Itto
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LMAO! Now that's what I'm talking 'bout!
12/21/09 11:06 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 12/21/09 11:20 PM
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I have books about Donn Draeger older than you. How's that? :-D

AND, I was there. Back in 1973 when I started training I saw it, went to tournaments, watched Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Jeff Smith spar/fight in tournaments in person. Don't tell me what 'Shotokan' had. People where I worked out punched air, did kata and did not spar. Maybe they did elsewhere. If there's no such thing as TMA, why did the Gracies kick all their asses? It's all about how you train. If you trained alive, then you are not a TMA, which means 'air punching', 'kata' and one-step sparring.

EVERY martial art has their share of TOUGH GUYS who can fight from Tai Ji to Hsing-i to TSD to TKD. It's not the style or the method here, it's those guys' specific attributes.

In fact, people did NOT realize this. As BL said, there are guys who were not bad fighters who went into martial arts and got 'tangled up in the classical mess' and were actually WORSE fighters than before they lost their original freedom (aggression, natural ability, etc.)

HTH.




 
12/22/09 10:43 AM
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de braco
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Wrong again.Frank Smith was the best fighter in north America in the 60's and came from shotokan,many of those early orginazations weeded out the people who weren't tough,both mental and physical.There are no books about Draeger older than me.I was shin kicking know it all fools in the face back when black guys jogged barefoot in gi's through the snow.

BTW,there are plenty of worthless tma's,kenpo,JKD,silat,
12/22/09 11:06 AM
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Ogami Itto
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I am liking this battle of old skool dudes here!
12/22/09 2:06 PM
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de braco
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Edited: 12/22/09 2:09 PM
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LOL.
12/22/09 2:06 PM
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de braco
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Edited: 12/22/09 2:08 PM
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I took 2 geritols and did 3 pushups while listening to skynard.
12/24/09 10:14 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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 Yeah, name-dropping and self-puffery FTW.

12/25/09 7:16 AM
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de braco
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Edited: 12/25/09 7:27 AM
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WTF are you talking about.Just because i pointed out several of a multitude of so called TMA guys who were much more well rounded than your idol makes me a name dropper?I don't go in for back door shenanagens,burn another incense stick for Bruce Lee.

BTW,you're old school and didn't notice the FBK joke?
12/29/09 5:44 PM
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MobutuHari
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WidespreadPanic - I have books about Donn Draeger older than you. How's that? :-D

AND, I was there. Back in 1973 when I started training I saw it, went to tournaments, watched Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Jeff Smith spar/fight in tournaments in person. Don't tell me what 'Shotokan' had. People where I worked out punched air, did kata and did not spar. Maybe they did elsewhere. If there's no such thing as TMA, why did the Gracies kick all their asses? It's all about how you train. If you trained alive, then you are not a TMA, which means 'air punching', 'kata' and one-step sparring.

EVERY martial art has their share of TOUGH GUYS who can fight from Tai Ji to Hsing-i to TSD to TKD. It's not the style or the method here, it's those guys' specific attributes.

In fact, people did NOT realize this. As BL said, there are guys who were not bad fighters who went into martial arts and got 'tangled up in the classical mess' and were actually WORSE fighters than before they lost their original freedom (aggression, natural ability, etc.)

HTH.




You make a good point WD. Though may I add the art (including its training methods) may change according to the environment? I grew up thinking Shotokan and Kenpo had NO kata. Why? B/c majority of the guys I knew in Shotokan and Kenpo were legit asskickers in tournaments and the street (and they had to quite often b/c that was the nature of it where we lived). A few of the guys tearing up the circuit back in the day I recall were these Japanese-American guys from Shotokan. A lot of tough guys then, from Shotokan, Kenpo (or Kajukenbo drivations), and Kyokushin. It wasn't until I read BB magazine, and until I actually took Kenpo that I realized there were katas. However, in training katas were not focused on much in the circle of kenpo I knew here.

For reference I grew up on the Leeward side of O'ahu, Hawai`i. All the old guys of my kenpo and eskrima club fought regularly in the street for self-protection. In fact, the location of the kenpo club was in the midst of a bad neighborhood that had regulars that always came by to test somebody out. The club ended up moving because of the large brawls between the school and the neighborhood. The eskrima class also had dojo-stormers.

This was ALIVE training at its best! Our arts, for little that we did know, compared to the plethora of techniques now available on youtube and media, never failed us then.
12/29/09 5:55 PM
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MobutuHari
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Too add I knew some shorei-ryu fighters and wado-ryu who were legit fighters as well. And they were that way because they were Japanese-Americans growing up in the 60's in racist areas of Washington, CA, and had to fight for self-protection.

So I don't necessarily think it's totally an art thing. More so the attitude and focus of practitioners which can be influenced from the environment they are in.
12/29/09 6:12 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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MobutuHari - So I don't necessarily think it's totally an art thing. More so the attitude and focus of practitioners which can be influenced from the environment they are in.


I think this nails it. "Who is your instructor? What does he make you spend all day doing?" I think those are the real questions.
12/29/09 7:12 PM
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MobutuHari
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Edited: 12/29/09 7:13 PM
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^Yes, yes.People look at arts, but it's not just that - it's also tactics and strategy. Students also have to be active learners and just build upon the base they know. All the arts I've taken I've never considered them waste of time. I still rip a ridge hand, snap kick, shuto strikes, and standing hammer fists when I'm sparring. I just adapt my tactics.

My HS friend was a son of a famous HI boxer - Andy Ganigan (I think 96 on Rings 100 most greatest punchers). The father would bring in kenpo and kickboxing guys now and then to spar with his sons. All they knew was boxing. So they got nailed with some good kicks . . but got in their shots in as well. Point is they still stuck with what they knew but adapted strategy to deal with kickboxers/kenpo guys. It helped when they actually ended up fighting kickboxers and muay thai guys in the street.

Anyhow I thought TMA was used to refer to non-ring arts. Muay Thai and kickboxing (karate derivatives) are ring arts. Muay Boran I figured would be considered in the TMA sector.
12/30/09 11:58 AM
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Ogami Itto
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twinkletoesCT - 
MobutuHari - So I don't necessarily think it's totally an art thing. More so the attitude and focus of practitioners which can be influenced from the environment they are in.


I think this nails it. "Who is your instructor? What does he make you spend all day doing?" I think those are the real questions.


Word. That's what I'm talking 'bout, Mobuto.

I always felt that way about everybody I trained with. Don't dump your style, just learn to adapt! My kung fu buddy used to get frustrated when we'd spar because I jabbed and he didn't. But we worked together to make him more competitive. I also pointed out that a lot of his stuff he couldn't pull in a sparring setting - knee kicks and shit, you know.
10/2/11 5:45 PM
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de braco
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 bump
11/19/11 7:32 PM
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PoundforPound
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Kenpo in the US ultimately traces back to William Chow. But Chow himself was a black belt under James Mitose.

And that is where things get interesting: some camps suggest that Chow combined the hard, linear Japanese style of Mitose with the more circular kung fu teachings of his Chinese immigrant father to create modern kenpo.

While others claim that all kenpo as we know it comes from the family art that Mitose learned in Japan and brought over to America.
11/21/11 1:47 AM
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shen
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Edited: 11/21/11 1:47 AM
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For those who don't know about Drager, here is an article by my teacher, (who happened to be a protege of his and is a pretty interesting guy in his own right):

http://inosanto.com/?p=248
11/21/11 9:00 AM
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twinkletoesCT
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 shen, that link is awesome!  Thanks for sharing that.
11/21/11 4:58 PM
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shen
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Edited: 11/21/11 5:18 PM
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^ Sure, man.

FWIW, I know he has been, for years, working on a book about Drager. He's got all sorts of interesting photos from research and training.

He himself -despite some impressive credentials- has always kept a very low profile. Just last week he returned from Japan where he was awarded his Master's licence in Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo.
1/15/12 6:43 AM
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nottheface
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I have a soft spot for Kempo still. The first MA class I took was a Kyoshu Ryu Kempo place. From what I remember, Mitose's kempo looked more like Goju-Ryo and other karate styles than Parker's American Kempo.
1/15/12 1:27 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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 I have a copy of Mitose's "What is Self-Defense? (Kenpo Ju-jitsu), and I have to say that the style looks, to my eye, like a generic form of Japanese Jujutsu.  Most of it is "hard block, strike to loosen him up or distract him, throw, strike again."  

The style of Kenpo that I trained later was not exactly the Parker system or the Tracy System, but somewhere in between (Technically, it was an early Parker system before he had fully canonized the "Parker American Kenpo" curriculum).  The system I trained, plus what I have seen of the Parker & Tracy systems, are all fairly similar in the big picture.  Mitose's material is vastly different (although its fingerprints are visible in the more recent systems).  

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