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SoldierGround >> RPG's Legit Threats to Modern Armor?


7/13/09 12:28 PM
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slo ko
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It would be good to hear from some active or former military on this subject.

Can an RPG disable a modern Abrams? Seems like they punch through Bradleys fairly well, but that's aluminum armor, right?
7/13/09 12:31 PM
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Govnor
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 I'm not expert, but I think the Abrams would be fine unless if was a freakishly good shot at some weak point.
7/13/09 12:36 PM
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slo ko
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 it might just be misinformation then from the American media who usually trot out "came under fire from RPGs" when discussing disabled armor.
7/13/09 12:42 PM
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Justafriend
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Javelin Missile & T72 Tank
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZAnYYj9orQ
7/13/09 12:43 PM
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slo ko
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great vid, but not an rpg, fren
7/13/09 12:48 PM
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Justafriend
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"In 2007, British officials confirmed that an RPG-29 round penetrated the frontal ERA and hull of a Challenger 2 tank during an engagement in al-Amarah, Iraq, injuring a crew member.

"http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1551418/MoD-kept-failure-of-best-tank-quiet.html

rpg 29
Armor penetration
reactive armor + 750 mm of steel

Details of the M1 losses were given, including one where 25mm armour-piercing depleted uranium (AP-DU) rounds from an unidentified weapon disabled a US tank near Najaf after penetrating the engine compartment. Another Abrams was disabled near Karbala after a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) penetrated the rear engine compartment and one was lost in Baghdad after its external auxiliary power unit was set on fire by medium-calibre fire.

Left and right side non-ballistic skirts were repeatedly penetrated by anti-armour RPG fire, according to the report, but only cosmetic damage was caused when they were struck by anti-personnel RPG rounds. There were no reported hits on ballistic skirts and no reported instance of US tanks hitting an anti-tank mine. Turret ammunition blast doors worked as designed. In one documented instance where a turret-ready ammunition rack compartment was hit and main gun rounds ignited, the blast doors contained the explosion and crew survived unharmed except for fume inhalation.
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jdw/jdw030620_1_n.shtml
7/13/09 1:22 PM
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Claw Hand
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I was an M1A1 tank crewman. Disabling a tank is not that hard, but destroying it is a different matter. If you shoot the track or the drive sprocket, you'll disable the tank. If you hit it from behind, you'll damage the transmission and disable it. If you shoot a tank from the top with an RPG and away from the front and side arc, you're going to penetrate the armor because it's <1" thick at the top. It's also possible to sneak in a lucky shot where the turret and hull meet and penetrate. However, with a run of the mill RPG, anything in the front arc won't do jack, the armor is over 2ft thick and has Chobham, which absorbs High Explosive blasts.
7/13/09 1:22 PM
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slo ko
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 interesting. i didn't know there was an anti personnel RPG round. I thought they were all anti armor.
7/13/09 3:15 PM
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GucciGucciGucci
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Here's a vid from about 2002 with some Chechen rebels and their weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OtHEcK_oA8&feature=fvw

At the 2:42 mark, there's a rebel holding an RPG with a double explosive warhead designed to go thru reactive armor. He claims it can penetrate all Russian tanks.

The Russians have probably made something better by now.

Will it go thru an M1's Chobham armor ? I have no clue.
7/13/09 3:43 PM
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slo ko
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Claw Hand - I was an M1A1 tank crewman. Disabling a tank is not that hard, but destroying it is a different matter. If you shoot the track or the drive sprocket, you'll disable the tank. If you hit it from behind, you'll damage the transmission and disable it. If you shoot a tank from the top with an RPG and away from the front and side arc, you're going to penetrate the armor because it's <1" thick at the top. It's also possible to sneak in a lucky shot where the turret and hull meet and penetrate. However, with a run of the mill RPG, anything in the front arc won't do jack, the armor is over 2ft thick and has Chobham, which absorbs High Explosive blasts.
I missed your post entirely. Glad to see it now.

I always wondered if you could disable a tank with a well placed grenade. Like tucking it in behind a sprocket or something in such a way that the blast had very limited escape options. 
 
7/13/09 3:44 PM
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slo ko
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slo ko - It would be good to hear from some active or former military on this subject.

Can an RPG disable a modern Abrams? Seems like they punch through Bradleys fairly well, but that's aluminum armor, right?
World's laziest jihadist.

(come on, guys. i hand fed you)
 
7/13/09 3:55 PM
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bruddahoodaman
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*rolls for damage*
7/13/09 3:57 PM
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hubris
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Aren't insurgents just using road side bombs instead?
7/13/09 4:57 PM
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ttt
7/13/09 5:05 PM
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slo ko
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hubris - Aren't insurgents just using road side bombs instead?
yeah. i think they figured out that assaulting armor any other way was bad for longevity.
 
7/13/09 5:59 PM
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jamison
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I was in Afghanistan back in 2006. When one of our Up-Armored HMMWVs got totalled from an IED we tested a M2, MK-19, and RPG against one of the doors. Nothing was able to penetrate the armor or even the window, the only damage on the inside was a slight dent and the foam went everywhere.
7/13/09 6:48 PM
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slo ko
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 were you using the armor piercing rounds for the RPG?
7/13/09 9:20 PM
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jamison
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Nah, it was a regular HE type. I doubt it could stop the anti-tank type RPGs.
7/13/09 9:40 PM
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American Icon
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Modern Armor is nigh indestructible. About 20 years ago that wasn't the case. The US, UK, and Soviet Union were considering phasing out tanks because they were easily destroyed by infantry mobile weapons and anti-tank ordinance from helis. Then the brits came up with a process for bonding ceramic and metal components in armor which they shared with the US, which was then stolen by israeli spies and sold to the Soviets and China, all of which is well documented. The end result is most nations with a sizable military budget now having tanks with composite armor that are far from easy to destroy.

Yes there is the occasional kill from an RPG or a TOW, but compared to what the rate would have been about 25 years ago, it's nothing.
7/13/09 10:50 PM
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American Icon
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Now you're kidding right? Do you have any idea what the kill rate is for infantry fired weapons vs. armor? It's very low. Very very low. According to Jane's at least. But hey you know more than professional international intelligence and military players right?
7/13/09 11:13 PM
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gregbrady
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powerguy - 
American Icon - Now you're kidding right? Do you have any idea what the kill rate is for infantry fired weapons vs. armor? It's very low. Very very low. According to Jane's at least. But hey you know more than professional international intelligence and military players right?



I don't internet warrior. I served in Afghanistan for 2 years and I have seen bucket bombs disable Tanks.

Janes is full of fucking pencil neck dweebs like you who never even seen a real fire fight.

If a force is well equipped with the proper equipment the tanks will go down .



LOL you are full of shit. You claim to have served in Afghansitan for 2 years but you're claiming the U.S. military would not do well in a stand-up fight against Hezbollah? LOL We're already fighting Hezbollah elements in Iraq and beating the everliving shit out of them They're using IEDS just like everyone else that doesn't want to get raped by our military in a firefight.
7/14/09 12:07 AM
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Claw Hand
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Wire guided missiles, such as TOW, Sagger, Spandrel, HOT, Milan can be countered rather easily. M1A1s have a device called appropriately enough the "Missile Counter Device (MCD)." The MCD puts out high powered microwaves and induces noise in the control wires causing erratic flight patterns so the missile crashes or goes off target.

The really scary missiles for tanks are infrared guided, like the Javelin and laser guided, like the Hellfire. Anything that has a "over-the-top" attack mode is a death sentence. But even for these missiles, there are countermeasures in the works.

What most people seem to be missing in this thread is that tanks seldom work alone. Tanks support the infantry as a moving pillbox that provides massive firepower and can also take out other tanks. The infantry protects tanks by making sure people don't sneak up on the more vulnerable areas of the tank, while the tank exposes the frontal arc toward the main threat.
7/14/09 12:17 AM
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bulletmagnet
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powerguy shut up or put up. you are a nobody.
7/14/09 12:32 AM
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arclight
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"I served in Afghanistan for 2 years and I have seen bucket bombs disable Tanks."

Cool. what was your branch, unit, and MOS?
7/14/09 4:48 AM
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Justafriend
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Edited: 07/14/09 4:56 AM
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Claw Hand - I was an M1A1 tank crewman. Disabling a tank is not that hard, but destroying it is a different matter. If you shoot the track or the drive sprocket, you'll disable the tank. If you hit it from behind, you'll damage the transmission and disable it. If you shoot a tank from the top with an RPG and away from the front and side arc, you're going to penetrate the armor because it's <1" thick at the top. It's also possible to sneak in a lucky shot where the turret and hull meet and penetrate. However, with a run of the mill RPG, anything in the front arc won't do jack, the armor is over 2ft thick and has Chobham, which absorbs High Explosive blasts.




"In 2007, British officials confirmed that an RPG-29 round penetrated the frontal ERA and hull of a Challenger 2 tank during an engagement in al-Amarah, Iraq, injuring a crew member.

"http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1551418/MoD-kept-failure-of-best-tank-quiet.html

Challenger 2 = chobham armor

Pic of a M-1A1 destroyed by RPG ambush
http://defense-update.com/features/du-1-04/rpg-threat.htm

there is not much a modern tank could do against tandem RPGs such as the Konkurs, Fagot and RPG-29(30)etc

Some may argue that the Trophy Active Protection System might defend the modern MBT's against tandem RPG's but it doesn't work so well
http://defense-update.com/products/t/trophy.htm

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