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Health & Medical UnderGround >> Product review and pricing, MSM and Chondroitin


7/23/09 5:53 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 07/23/09 5:59 PM
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Joint Aid. MSM and Chrondroitin:
There's some pretty good anecdotal evidence that Chondroitin and MSM (MethylSufonylMethane) will aid those with joint problems. MSM is touted as a biologically available source of Sulphur. Chondroitin is reported to be attracted to joint surfaces and to aid with degenerative arthritis (not rheumatoid, though, which is an immune problem).


Good Company:
Anyway, I had ordered this company before but never really got on a comprehensive schedule of taking these in sufficient dosages and doing them regularly. The company (not affiliated) is www.msm-msm.com. It's a mom and pop organization and they have a good rep.


Order and Pricing:
This is very inexpensive source with high quality. We're talking $25 buck per pound vs $60 and sometimes as high as $300/lb depending on where you shop.

I ordered the five pound bag of Chondroitin and the five, one-pound bags of MSM. The cost was very inexpensive. My order of 5lbs of Chondroitin was only $125 and there's really no point in getting it in gelatin capsules, since there is no taste in juice. (I kind of expected it to be bitter or something).

-----
Just a random price check, 1000 mg, 150 capsules is selling for 15 bucks. That's $225 bucks for 5 lbs. So, my cost was about 1/2 this. They also have the material assayed and it's guaranteed to be 99.9% pure, no heavy metals or contaminants. Basically it's $25 bucks a pound vs $45 or more at your typical vitamin store.

I just checked my local store and they want $31 bucks not including tax, for 800gm capsules, 60 a bottle. Whoa. That's $30 bucks for ~50gm, so that's around $600 bucks for a one pound supply, or $3000 bucks for a 5lb supply. Dayum, becky. Compare $125 vs $3000. It's robbery and because of this people just don't take enough to have good effect. Anyway...
-----

MSM is also good and inexpensive
The MSM is similarly inexpensive at $9.75/lb, or $48.75 for five pounds. Shipping is free on orders over $100-125 bucks.  Typical MSM is as high as $80/lb depending on where you look. (it's really over priced) and it might not even be the good granular/flakes and might be powder. Purity can be a problem with it, so check your labels and see if the store-bought stuff is assayed or has a purity guarantee.


Dosages and taste and mixing:
The point of this is that you have to take it in the recommended dosages and if you get gelatin pills, you're left swallowing handfuls of them twice a day to get 10 gms. (Some people like capsules, though and the company will sell them like this). Again, for me, the reason to get capsules is if the stuff is foul-tasting and both of these are virtually tasteless.

The MSM is in crystal form and a heaping measured teaspoon easily dissolves in a cup of cold apple juice and is absolutely tasteless.

The Chondroitin is in powder form and it will also dissolve in the same cup. I had a little residue in the bottom, so I poured in a little warm water and finished it off.


Regime
I plan to take a teaspoon of each, twice a day. Two slightly heaping measured teaspoons (using a baking measure) is about .35 oz, or 10g. So 10g of each per day to start. I'll start out with that and maybe increase it to 3-4 tsps per day, or up to 20g each per day, aiming to go for at least 6 months. With the supplement being this inexpensive, I'm not worried about the price, which can be daunting with the stuff you find at the local vitamin store (and their markup).

I'll track my results, and report back if I get good results, but most people don't get any results until about the three month point. I'm aware that some people don't get a result with this, but I'm willing to try it. Even MDs are admitting it's worth a try and not just another junk supplement.

Sorry to be long but hopefully the formating and titles make it easier to read.

 
7/26/09 2:19 PM
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MuscleGeek
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The scientific evidence behind both is actually not too bad.. However, I believe it was the GAIT trial, that showed even the placebo group showed a 40 or 50% pain relief. Thus, you always have to wonder, especially for those that have no objective measurements, how much the mind plays into it.

Check out fish oil and cucurmin. Both are excellent at keeping inflammation at bay. There was a study not too long ago that showed that fish oil was just as good as one of the popular NSAIDS in terms of arthritic pain relief.
7/28/09 4:52 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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 Hah, that's true, Placebo effect is quite something.

I'm taking the position that this will work. The first night after my initial dose, I'm lying in bed thinking "I'm not in pain, one dose 10 g of each couldn't possibly work that fast". I almost LOL'd.

For me, a hundred and a half bucks is such a palty amount of money, if I take it all (5 lbs of each) during my 6month trial and it doesn't work, no big deal.

I do take fish oil (4g/day), and only take an ibuprofin (2 tabs) once or twice a week. (I just try to ignore any pain).

I'll look into cucurmin.

Do you mean this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumin

Brand? Dose?

I also take Cayenne pepper caps, but, mainly for help reducing so-called "bad" cholesterol levels. Those are also supposed to reduce chronic pain, also, but who knows? We're stil not sure if cholesterol is good or bad. The body makes it if you don't have enough in your diet.

I used to take a lot of supplements, but beside a multi-vit, and the above and a baby aspirin, and garlic, that's it, these days.

Thanks for the input!

7/28/09 10:51 AM
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MuscleGeek
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It's curcumin, an active ingredient from the spice tumeric.

My fiance played division I basketball and had severe knee tendonitis. She was taking more ibuprofen than a small elephant should.

I had her take 20 capsules of fish oil per a day, along with 2 curcumin 500mg. Two weeks later she stopped taking ibuprofen completely. She hasn't taken one since, 2 years later, and she says her knee feels great.

I use a product from Life Extensions. It's high quality and cheap.
7/29/09 10:45 AM
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MMADC
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For overall healthy joints, I like both chondroitin and MSM, but pure collagen for me works even better. Seems to heal ligaments faster than almost anything else I've tried. Cheaper too.
8/2/09 2:44 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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UPDATE:
After 9 days on the regime, only missing one day (we had a new kitchen floor installed, so was busy/distracted), I can report two improvements, or effects.

1.) I had a little bit of a rash or mild psoriasis or something in my ear, just outside the ear canal. It was slightly itchy and it comes and goes, flairing up in the Summer. This has healed up. I'm thinking the MSM.

2.) The sciatica or arthritis or whatever is in my lower back, outside of the hip is much 'duller' of a pain. I don't have the morning pain, and get out of bed much more easily.

Now, I did not expect ANY change for 3-4 months. So...I'm not completely convinced these changes are 'real' or if there's some 'placebo' effect.

More, as I continue. Hope this is of interest.


9/6/09 9:57 AM
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RIPBILLHICKS
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Unfortunately not all supplements are the same quality- I know, my company distributes bulk nutritional powders to supplement co.s.

For MSM use products containing OptiMSM, for Chondroitin use Cosamin brand by Nutramax. Both are expensive, but worth it. Cosamin contains Bioiberica Chondroitin, which is the best material available in the US. OptiMSM is made in the U.S. and is high quality.
9/6/09 8:47 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 09/06/09 8:48 PM
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RIPBILLHICKS - Unfortunately not all supplements are the same quality- I know, my company distributes bulk nutritional powders to supplement co.s.

For MSM use products containing OptiMSM, for Chondroitin use Cosamin brand by Nutramax. Both are expensive, but worth it. Cosamin contains Bioiberica Chondroitin, which is the best material available in the US. OptiMSM is made in the U.S. and is high quality.
The first company listed on the OptiMSM page is selling EXTREMELY expensive crap, adulterated with filler Hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, cellulose, silicon dioxide, L-leucine, for $14 for 150 capsules. It's a scam.

Avoid this: http://www.allergyresearchgroup.com/MSM-150-Vegetarian-Caps-p-150.html

Go with the site I provided. The MSM is pure crystalline flakes and is the cheapest available.
   
11/27/09 1:06 PM
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savage animal
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Edited: 11/27/09 1:22 PM
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Thanks for all the info!

I understand and appreciate your reasoning for buying powders in bulk, I do the same for protein and PWO supps that I have very accustomed to, but currently do not wish to dish out $50-$200 for this particualr supp., since I am new to it and unsure if such dosage, or any joint supp. is necessary for myself.

I have partially torn cartilege (inferior labrum) in my shoulder, resulting bursitis, arthiritis, etc. due to the 15 year old shoulder injury (sustained in HS wrestling, aggravated in current BJJ/strength training)

Recently burst bursa sac i the elbow (other arm), deposits of fluid/scrar tissue in the elbow

Strained LCL

I plan to add Glucosamine/Chronditron/MSM to my minimal supp. regimen

I was hoping to just take some joint supp. tablets pre &/or post training, or with my multi vitamins a time or two a day, but it seems that the caps are not enough dosage in your view, SImilar to fish oil caps? (I take liquid fish oil for this reason).

How about caps from a good co.? I plan to buy from NOW Foods unless compelled otherwise, don't want to overcomplicate this, but don't want to take non-worthwhile pills as placebo, akin to taking non-whole food based multis, but not trying to go crazy on the spending either. 
11/27/09 1:17 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 11/27/09 8:30 PM
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G/C/MSM will likely not help torn cartilage or burst bursa. It just allows your body to rehydrate and maybe rebuild the cartilage on the ends of your joints, knee, and hip, mostly.

As far as 'just popping some caps', you're being penny wise and pound foolish. The 'caps' you're buying are going to be in the range of $300/lb, though you might only buy few ounces.

So here's what you should do:
1. Go to Pubmed and look up the original research. Look at the therapeutic doses they used. Calculate what dosage popping some gelatin caps (with inert silicon added, btw) will add up to, and see how many you'd have to eat to come anywhere -near- the therapeutic doses in the article.
2. Most orthopedic doctors will tell you that there is -real- research that C/G/MSM will help joints in many people. (no, it doesn't help everyone), and that the results seen indicate it's worth a try. These same doctors, most of whom are sensible, will also tell you to eat good food and get your micronutrients that way -  so if an MD tells you a (fairly cheap) supplement will help you, being against their normal approach (to sell you expensive drugs), it's worth a listen.

The sources I listed are good ones; (the best quality/cheapest I've seen). I doubt you even went to the site and looked around. Have you been to a vitamin store? You can't buy a month's supply of even simple vitamins for under $25-30 bucks. So, if you think $50 is 'expensive' you're out of touch. I'm not suggesting you go spend money and I have no stock in the company I cited, so do as you like. That site will also sell you gelatin-filled capsules with Chondroitin and with MSM and Glucosamine, but at cheaper prices. IMO, using the bulk powder in apple juice is MUCH better. Many capsules have inert ingredients added to prevent clumping (like silicon, mentioned above). You don't want to really be eating large amounts of that, though it prob. won't hurt you - nobody knows.

If you want to take sub-optimal doses for sub-optimal duration, that's your business. All I can do is direct you to the source and have you study the research yourself.

As I said, your particular injuries do not sound to me as being likely to respond to C/G/MSM supplementation (but you never know) and you have to be on them for about 4 months (for most people) before you can count on seeing results.

You should also go to your Orthopedist and discuss it with him. If the torn cartilage is only a partial tear and the ends are close together, they will repair on their own, over time. Ask him the effective doses. It sometimes helps to print out the relevant articles from Pubmed and take them with you.

YMMV, HTH. Good luck!


    
1/13/10 2:56 PM
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sta94
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TTT for later. thanks for the info!
5/21/11 10:48 AM
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SKARHEAD
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ttt
5/21/11 10:48 AM
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SKARHEAD
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12/21/11 4:44 PM
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OctagonSoldier
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12/22/11 8:36 AM
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JimmySmith
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Glucosamine/Chronditron/MSM are good options for ensuring, stablizing and encourgaing joint recovery but they aren't the only available options. Typically they are the first joint supplement I'll recommend to my clients just to make sure they have them in rotation.

From there it'll be a 3 step protocol for joint health

1:Eat an anti-inflammatory diet/take anti-inflammatory nutrients like omega-3, krill oil

2:Get on a systemic enzyme treatment.Enzymes aid in the breakdown and removal of immune compromising toxins that negatively impact joint health, circulatory regulation, skin health, liver performance, blood sugar balance and heart health.Degenerative joints such as the low back and knees will feel better, even with a lack of cartilage, due to enzyme therapy.

3:Start supplementing with Boswellia to inhibit the pro-inflammatory 5-lox enzyme as well as UC-2 chicken cartilage that has been shown to help with immune system functions that cause joint discomfort while increasing the ease of motion.

12/25/11 10:29 AM
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ArthurKnoqOut
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another thing I'd like to recommend if you have joint or muscle pain, especially from working out training is the following:

1. Warming arnica gel

2. Mumijio, which is a tar-like substance from the Central Asian Caucus mountains and has been used for therapeutic use for a millennium. it comes in both pill form and cream. I use both during grappling injuries and it is extremely beneficial...placebo effect or not :P
1/2/12 8:20 PM
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OctagonSoldier
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JimmySmith - Glucosamine/Chronditron/MSM are good options for ensuring, stablizing and encourgaing joint recovery but they aren't the only available options. Typically they are the first joint supplement I'll recommend to my clients just to make sure they have them in rotation.

From there it'll be a 3 step protocol for joint health

1:Eat an anti-inflammatory diet/take anti-inflammatory nutrients like omega-3, krill oil

2:Get on a systemic enzyme treatment.Enzymes aid in the breakdown and removal of immune compromising toxins that negatively impact joint health, circulatory regulation, skin health, liver performance, blood sugar balance and heart health.Degenerative joints such as the low back and knees will feel better, even with a lack of cartilage, due to enzyme therapy.

3:Start supplementing with Boswellia to inhibit the pro-inflammatory 5-lox enzyme as well as UC-2 chicken cartilage that has been shown to help with immune system functions that cause joint discomfort while increasing the ease of motion.


What do you recommend as far as an 'systemic enzyme treatment' ?  Is that like coQ10?

 
1/5/12 3:13 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 01/05/12 3:15 AM
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 ^^

Vitalzyme (commercial product) + is an enzyme formulation that contains protease, serrapeptase, papain, bromelain, amylase, lipase, rutin and amia, which is a rich source of vitamin C. Serrapeptase is a unique proteolytic enzyme isolated from non-pathogenic enterobacteria Serratia E 15 that has superior anti-inflammatory action[1] when compared to other proteolytic enzymes. Serrapeptase is the enzyme found in the intestine of the silkworm that permits the silkworm to break out of the cocoon.

From: Site

Worth it? IDK - sounds like snake oil - our bodies make those enzymes (or they're ubiquitous in common foods in the US), except for Serrapeptase.

Protease - body makes it
Papain/bromelain - eat pineapple (fresh)
Rutin - buckwheat, asparagus, grapefruit
...etc.

  
1/5/12 5:03 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 01/05/12 5:10 AM
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 Nice chart on Minerals and Trace elements the body needs. (best if found in food, except Ca, Mg), IMO. It's not all-inclusive. Some people think Selenium helps delay graying hair, some minerals work to potentiate vitamins (Vit D and Calcium work together) etc... site (I have not individually verified all these, so consider it a starting point)

  
  

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