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Health & Medical UnderGround >> More results - MSM and Chondroitin supplementation


8/5/09 3:52 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 08/05/09 3:52 PM
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 Posted earlier on this here, but figured I'd start a new thread to give results since that was about purchasing the supplements.

I've now been taking the MSM / Chondroitin for 12 days, 10 gm each and I can definitely say there's been improvement in:
1. Range of motion;
2. Pain relief;
3. Muscle spasm;
4. Skin condition improvement.

Most of this is from the MSM, it seems, but that's just an impression. Very odd that something which some people feel is just another quack supplement can cause improvement in a variety of conditions.

My leg has at least a 6-8" range of motion improvement, the pain in the morning is almost gone and any throbbing or stabbing pain in the late evening is gone. There is some dull pain in the glute, outer hip and the side of the leg is still 'warm' meaning the deep muscle is still in spasm. (I have sciatica and some piriformis syndrome and maybe some sacral misalignment and/or minor spinal nerve compression. Hard to tell what the root cause is).

To have such a response in under 2 weeks is surprising. Reading the various comments, some people report odd things such as their hair color returning to normal (from graying) and other skin and hair improvements from the MSM. Again, it seems to be highly variable from no response to small changes over several months with fairly high doses. At least there almost no toxicity taken at multi-gram doses, so I'm going to keep going.

FYI.

 
8/8/09 6:08 PM
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Kirkor Papasian
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 i've read that while taking msm in large doses one should deffinately drink alot of water. i think it had to do with msm's ability to flush toxins from your cells. i guess one would want to make sure theyre hydrated if alot of garbage is getting released in your body
9/2/09 12:24 PM
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Shabazeid
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A lot of help for me if this is true ,Panic
9/7/09 10:19 PM
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AFTC
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Take THE LIQUID form. The pills do nothing but the liquid will work in a couple of days. Costco has a big bottle for $20.
9/8/09 12:53 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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 Pills? I'm not taking any pills. What is this 'liquid form'. Link? Cite? Evidence?
9/9/09 8:25 PM
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Amarelo
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Both of these supplements help me out tons with shoulder pain.
11/14/09 4:14 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 11/14/09 4:58 PM
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Another update on taking the Chondroitin and MSM from msm-msm.com.

First I only mention the site because it's the most pure, cheapest I've found. It's a Mom and Pop type group but very professional. I get mine in large bags of purified powder or for the MSM crystals, rather than in capsules.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm getting pretty good, if somewhat subtle results. Less pain in my hip (injury with sciatica). In the past I had moderate throbbing pain throughout the night and I no longer have that or if so, it's mild. IMO, I would have had better results had I known about and started this when I first got my injury in 2002-3, but didn't start it until this past June.

My wife is also taking the MSM with me, but without the chondroitin. I'm taking three-four heaping measured teaspoons of it in a cup of apple juice per day.

Besides the improved mobility and decreased pain, I'm also noticing my hair on my head is growing faster. But the most noticeable change is the growth rate of my fingernails. Normally I clip them once every two weeks. I'm now having to trim them 2-3x -per- week. That's about 5-6 times faster growth above normal. (My wife also reports this, but not quite as rapid growth - she probably has to trim them 1-2x/week).

There are lots of anecdotal reports of things like this, including people's hair going from gray back to their natural color (I haven't seen this), and other good side effects (with the MSM). Since my side effects are greater, it might be a synergism between the MSM and the Chondroitin, but since my wife, only taking the MSM is getting the effect I think it's primarily due to the MSM.

It's now been about 5 months since I started on the MSM (3-4 heaping teaspoons) and Chondroitin (2 heaping teaspoons) per day and only missed about 2-4 days total in that period. Most people say it takes about 4-6 months to start to see benefits of the Chondroitin. It's not completely clear what's happening physiologically.

Hope this helps others here with minor to moderate joint problems.

   
11/27/09 12:39 PM
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savage animal
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 good info!

I was about to buy some NOW brand Glucosamine/Chronditrin/MSM or maybe even the Target house brand

Is pill form not the way to go? Powder vs liquid?

Is there a liquid form that includes all 3, that is good quality/value?

Take once daily? Take before or after training or any time of day just as well? With food?

11/27/09 1:35 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 11/27/09 8:28 PM
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savage animal - 

 good info!

I was about to buy some NOW brand Glucosamine/Chronditrin/MSM or maybe even the Target house brand

Is pill form not the way to go? Powder vs liquid?

Is there a liquid form that includes all 3, that is good quality/value?

Take once daily? Take before or after training or any time of day just as well? With food?

As I said I prefer to use single, bulk sources. I have a bag of Chondroitin, a bag of MSM and I dose them out into an emptied container of bottled water. I add the amounts using a small funnel and a measured teaspoon you can get in a cooking store. Then I pour in the apple juice and shake for a minute. It completely dissolves them, though I'm using higher doses now (work up to them) than you should start with.

I suggest avoiding pills, which are going to have 'milligram' quantities, since the doses you are likely to need are going to be 'gram' quantities. Most 'pills' will have stuff added to them to allow them to slide through the mass-production machinery-greasers, emulsifiers, drying agents, and so forth and though those are inert and thought not to be toxic you never know.

I'm sure there is a liquid form, but again, what is the liquid? I'm sure it's more expensive than apple juice. (you shouldn't use acidic juices, like orange, grapefruit or pineapple - they interfere with the Chondroitin, I've heard, though that may be anecdotal, since, after all, your stomach juices are acidic, lol).

When you think about it and if you ask experienced vitamin users, most of them will tout the benefits of using bulk powders. They are 99.9% pure (i.e. no silicon or other agents added) and they're cheaper, since there is a cost to making a gelatin capsule and adding the substance). Though you might pay more at one time for a pound of MSM crystal/power, it's about 1/10th what you'd pay for the same thing in a pill or capsule in a vitamin store. (See my price breakdown).

Right now, I take them once a day and I don't believe it matters what time of day. I'd avoid taking them right before bed if you have any problems with 'heartburn'. My doses are 3-4 heaping teaspoons of MSM, and 3-4 heaping teaspoons of Chondroitin per cup or 1.5 cups of apple juice. Start out with two level teaspoons of each in 1.5 cups to mask the somewhat bitter taste and gradually increase it over time. Try to do it daily and not miss a day and go for at least 4-6 months before deciding.

Though there is some initial expense, it's cheaper than surgery, better than tolerating the pain, and better than buying tiny suboptimal doses at very expensive health food store prices which 'looks' cheaper, but in the end isn't even close to the economy of bulk powders.

As I said in the other post about this, go research on Pubmed and make your own decisions. As for me, I'm sold on it - I have benefits, though they're subtle (pain is a lot less), and my wife has experienced improvement, also (both hip and back pain and mobility)

HTH

    
11/27/09 5:35 PM
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savage animal
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Thanks again for all the info and explanation!
Good luck!
11/28/09 12:08 PM
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martinburke
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WS, do you think the increased ROM and decreased pain is from a reduction in systemic inflammation, or from something else?
11/28/09 1:16 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 11/28/09 1:19 PM
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MB, I don't know. I don't think the mechanism is understood at all. It could be a nerve thing or it could be a muscle swelling thing, or a connective tissue thing.

Inflammation in the joints and surrounding tissues can occur when the pain and swelling makes the nerves more reactive, so that causes more tension and pain and that starts the cycle all over again.

Inflammation can be cell-mediated or systemic. It could be that there's some mediation of the cellular response (less histamine, lowering of prostaglandins), or it could be tissue-based. (I'm being unscientific here, because we don't know the causes, and everyone is different).

It is suspected that somehow the Chondroitin causes the existing cartilage to absorb more fluid, become spongier, and thicker. MSM is a bioavailable source of sulphur. Why it grows hair and fingernails, why it helps with pain and inflammation is not, to my knowledge, well understood. It is derived from DMSO, which is also known to improve conditions involving inflammation.

Incidentally, my wife visited her sister over T-day, and her sister commented that her hair looks longer and thicker. Mine is thicker also. (uh, what that means, IDK. It's a feel. I don't think more hair per square inch is proliferating, nor do I know if the hair shaft is thicker).

As to ROM, if the joint movement is inhibited in range by the swelling or by the protective response of the nerve sensors then decreasing inflammation or sensitivity or pain would be a good thing.

My sense is that reduction in pain is a significant component of the result.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.
 
1/6/10 3:45 PM
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cortXbomb
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Thanks for the info. I have piriformis and nerve issues as well, plus shoulder and neck problems so hopefully MSM and Chondroitin will help. I ordered a pound of both from that site to try them out.
1/6/10 3:58 PM
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savage animal
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 glad to see this thread again.

the effect, stated above, to cartledge makes me think that supplementing these may actually help the pain, soreness, lack or ROM, strength resulting from my partial inferior labral tear.
1/7/10 4:53 PM
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Thezune
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savage animal -  good info!

I was about to buy some NOW brand Glucosamine/Chronditrin/MSM or maybe even the Target house brandIs pill form not the way to go? Powder vs liquid?

Is there a liquid form that includes all 3, that is good quality/value?Take once daily? Take before or after training or any time of day just as well? With food?


I just started taking GNC TriFlex, it has Glucosamine/CHondroitin/MSM and according to reviews it also has a few other ingredients that help w/ anti inflamation. But overall, after a week, I can notice my shoulder pain isn't there as much even after training or lifting weights.
1/13/10 2:51 PM
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sta94
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TTT for later. Thank you!!!
1/30/10 2:21 AM
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Dan O'Connell
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ttt
2/11/10 7:39 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Just a ttt and some results.

Since doing the combo (I plan to add Glucosamine to the mix when I order again), I have not had to take any pain meds, and I'm sleeping through the night. I no longer have trouble jumping out of bed in the mornings. I still have some pain but it's minor.

ROM has improved, but it could be better.

I'm still doing 4 tsps of each in warm Apple juice (about .5 cup).

Post your results. Is it placebo effect? I don't think so.
2/15/10 8:54 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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 An update:

I've now been doing this combination (4 tsps MSM, 4 tsps Chondroitin), since early Aug 2009. Yesterday I went to the B&N for coffee. Their benches are wooden, no padding and after an hour, my hips hurt normally.

But, after an hour yesterday, nothing. No pain, no soreness, no spasming in the upper left hip. That can't be placebo effect. I'm convinced that for whatever the freak I had going on - piriformis, or iliotibial band syndrome, or sacro-iliac joint problems, this regime reduces the pain to nearly zero. I've done literally no NSAIDs (except for a headache twice) since August.

When I re-order I'm getting some glucosamine powder. Total cost since Aug has been two shipments of 10lbs each for about $175 for each. So 20lbs of each for $350. If you went to the local HFS and tried to order this amount of substance in pill form, it would cost you about $3000 bucks.


2/15/10 12:27 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Starting Glucosamine: FAQ
http://www.painclinic.org/jointpain-glucosamine.htm

--------------------------
What is the recommended dose of Glucosamine ?

  • The maximum recommended dose is 1500 mg per day. This can be taken as a single dose or divided into 500 mg three times a day. Beware combination products which contain vitamin C - it may be quite easy to exceed the maximum RDA (Recommended Daily Allowance) with these products. The UK and USA RDA for vitamin C is 60 mg.

Can Glucosamine be combined with anything else ?

  • If glucosamine itself is not helpful in relieving arthritic symptoms, it may be combined with chondroitin and other nutrients. alternatively, glucosamine and chondroitin can be started together. The positive effects of glucosamine reducing joint pain are often noticed within a few weeks.
  • Glucosamine can be taken together with paracetamol and NSAIDs such as ibuprofen and diclofenac. After glucosamine starts working in a few weeks, hopefully the dose of the drugs can be reduced or eliminated.
  • -----------------------------------
tsp oz gm mg
3 0.5 14 1400


2/16/10 7:22 PM
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poolparty
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heard body builder dudes suggest glc 2000

http://www.glcdirect.com/glc2000/index.php

check it out. whatever pills i was taking cause me to have horrible sleep so i stopped taking them. switching to morning dose.
5/21/11 10:45 AM
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SKARHEAD
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ttt
5/22/11 11:00 PM
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Seong gyeong
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That's some good news. I'm about to order supps online and with an old wrist injury flaring up the MSM sounds promising. I'll chime in with my own experience when I get it.
11/30/11 12:27 AM
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BCFJ
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Widespread are you still taking these? Any updates on your progress?
12/1/11 2:35 AM
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turducken
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what about hyaluronic acid or cissus? have you tried either of those?

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