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9/5/09 7:18 AM
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dojo stormer
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Member Since: 7/23/05
Posts: 1544

i think you may of saw this article


or watched this clip

either way, good luck in not getting killed
9/5/09 7:40 AM
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Member Since: 8/24/07
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This is some martial arts wet dream.

The legal and liability issues associated with this idea are fraught with risk.

Leave the police work to the cops.
9/5/09 9:00 AM
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Member Since: 4/25/07
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Instead of the X men, we could be the X-guardian angels. Somebody will have to learn how to use it though, cause it's not my cup of tea. Charles, I am sure at some stage, we have all wished this same thing, I have been waiting for years for some multi billionaire to finance my advance weaponary research so I could actually develop a suit that could give me decent odds at not being killed in the scenarios you speak of, but I dont know any.

People need to be smart when they go out, alot are but the reality is on the news every day, there are idiots out there, who have bad intentions. I see so many people staggeering home at 5am on there own when I go to work. They make themselves vulnerable to bad people, most get home safe, but a small minority don't. I choose to increase my chances of living a bit longer, so I don't put myself into those vulnerable positions. Not everybody gets caught out like this, but trouble is alot easier to avoid if people just used there heads.
9/5/09 1:54 PM
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Edited: 09/06/09 8:36 AM
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withdrawn from argument
9/6/09 6:43 AM
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Charles Xavier
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Edited: 09/06/09 7:03 AM
Member Since: 8/25/09
Posts: 9
Hi Guys,

Dojo Stormer, thanks for the links, but if those guys expect to be taken seriously, I suggest they stop dressing like clowns. That sort of stuff is nothing more than a stupid gimmick that undermines and distracts from their true intentions.

Rhoid, have you actually researched these legal and liability issues. Not having a shot directly at you but I have had few questions and ALOT of assumptions posted on here. So if you see someone breaking into a car, a home or someone being raped, what would you do? Don't worry, leave it for the police and walk away. It's attitudes like that, that have got us to where we are now.

Rogerology, I wish a Bruce Wayne type would step up, but I wouldn't hold my breath unfortunately. I agree with your second paragraph but it's getting to the point that if you go out and do the right thing, it doesn't decrease your chances anymore. Also, if the trend of not doing social activities in order to reduce risk of assault were to continue, think about where it would lead? It would simply become too dangerous to leave your house at night....is that where we want to go?

Cade...finally someone actually asking questions. Here's some info that may want to read, as you are incorrect in relation to the grounds of assault. This is a perfect case of where misinformation and assumption are at play. Perhaps people need to get familiar with what actually constitutes assault. When reading it, I suggest you also read this as well:

The legislation that defines a citizen's powers of arrest.

The legislation that allows you, in appropriate circumstances, to make a citizen's arrest, states:

A person who is NOT a police officer may, without warrant, arrest another person if he or she believes on reasonable grounds that the other person is committing or has just committed an offence.

A person who arrests another person shall, as soon as practicable after the arrest, arrange for the other person, and any property found on the other person, to be delivered into the custody of a police officer.

You are legally required to inform the person why you have detained them, unless the suspect's actions make it impractical to inform them. Using force when detaining someone.

The legislation states, in connection with the use of force in making an arrest, that:

A person shall not, in the course of arresting another person for an offence, use more force, or subject the other person to greater indignity, than is necessary and reasonable to make the arrest or to prevent the escape of the other person after the arrest.

As a general rule, any force used must be reasonable and proportionate. The circumstances when some level of force may be justified include:

in self-defence to prevent the escape of the offender. The best approach to detaining a suspect is to use subtle methods of restraint such as standing around in numbers. Be very careful if you have requested a suspect to remain (of their own free will) on the premises. Indicating to a suspect that they would not be allowed to leave even if they wanted to, technically means that you have affected an arrest.

Here is the web page address as I have cut and pasted above the 2 relevant paragraphs.

here's webpage regarding assault: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s31.html

So if it's a dog eat dog world, if you're ever involved in a situation where you are potentially on the wrong end of being badly assaulted, you won't want anyone to help??

I'm sorry you feel that helping others isn't worth it. Basically you've given up. Once again, it's attitudes like this that we have what we have now. People don't get it, by not actually stepping up and helping stop this stuff, we actually contribute to society's decline. It's worth the risk as the alternative is much worse.

And as usual, leave it someone to deal with...the police, the government, the justice ( or injustice ) system. It takes an effort from everyone, not just the authorities.

Now to answer your questions.

What do you actually believe you will be doing? This question is a little vague. Do you mean when actually out there at night helping stop assaults or as what we will be try to achieve ? If you mean actual activities, I would envision a group making a presence in popular areas where assaults occur and if an assault is witnessed, then we would step in and stop the assault. Where possible, hold the perpetrators until the police arrive. If it's about what we're trying to achieve, hopefully to lead by example when it comes to helping others and letting the cowards know that if they want to assault people, there are people that are willing to step up and stop them, makimg sure they are handed to the police.

Commit an assault to assailants? Definitely not, we would be acting within the law to stop the continuation of an offence. We would not be handing out the justice as we see fit. As much as I'm sure a lot of us would like to, it would undermine our purpose and expose us to prosecution ourselves.

We would not be looking to fight, we would be looking to stop fights, not perpetuate them. Assumptions once again. No they don't fight just with there hands, but this is why I am wanting martial artists with the relevant training. Plus, if you've ever worked security, when 2 groups are fighting, you as the third party have the advantage and are able to subdue them in an easier fashion.

With regards to the police and politicians. The politicians will manipulate any situation for their own gain, so that's a pointless argument. With relation to support from police, the ones I've spoken to would be happy to support us providing we were doing the right thing legally. The top ranking police are motivated by political issues also, so I doubt they would come out and give us a parade. But I believe it's all on how you sell it.

I don't mean to be harsh with my replies, but a lot of people get images in their head of what I am proposing without actually asking questions.

9/6/09 10:50 AM
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9/6/09 10:54 AM
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9/8/09 5:47 AM
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Dude if you really want to do this - stay away from getting directly involved. The risks a too great... You would be better served carrying a video camera and taping anything that happens and hand it to the cops and a mobile to call them. Although I admire your community spirit and motivation to step up against the current problems I feel that you are going down the wrong track by attempting to directly insert yourself into the violence you are trying to stop.

There are so many legal and liability issues associated with the formation of a private law enforcement body that they are almost too impossible to list in detail... just a simple one relates to the "arresting" you will do.

All arrests = Court.

If you arrest someone - even if you hand it over to the cops - you will have to go to court. Are you trained in court process and evidence delivery. Are you capable of preparing a statement that satisfies rule of evidence. Are you able to give a sufficient pre-trial briefing to the prosecutor. Do you know the Judges Rules? Do you expect the police to drop everything and do this for you? Do you know the difference between the various type of summary offences and those dealt with by way of indictment. What are the elements of these offences, do you know the various proofs required to satisfy each of these elements? What if your bad guy claims a legal defense such as "extraordinary emergency" or other exculpatory provisions. What about co-offenders and arresting them. Will you ask that they be charged co-jointly or stand alone? etc... and that is only the very beginning for an adult... what happens if the bad guy is a 15 year old kid, or mentally ill (and not criminally responsible for his actions), or disabled, deaf, can't speak english etc.etc.etc. Remember this is real life and not TV - you can't fuck this up. If you do - as a private citizen the bad guy is entitled to seek redress for wrongful arrest, deprivation of liberty, compensation for injuries sustained etc.

Whether you like them or not, or agree with the way they are dealing with this problem or not, the cops are the only ones that should deal with the hands on arresting people.

They are guided by over 150 years of law, policy and procedure and are offically sanctioned by the government to do so. They study years on this stuff and have experience in the practical application of this stuff.They have training in dealing with these people face to face and still have problems (and they are armed with batons, pepper spray, handcuffs, guns, police dogs, divvy vans of backup cops.) Speak with any security industry professionals and they will readily tell you of the surprisingly limited powers they when dealing with the worst of behaviours.

I would be seriously concerned if you were relying on a couple of paragraphs cut and pasted off an internet webpage as the basis for you apply force to another person.
9/8/09 10:50 AM
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Member Since: 11/11/02
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Its a great idea! Go for it. Fuck the courts and fuck the law!!!
9/9/09 3:55 AM
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Member Since: 10/27/06
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da na na na na na da na na batman!
9/9/09 6:03 AM
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Member Since: 4/25/07
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I was caught up in an issue once with a person who ended up being a bikie member. And I only got caught up in it because I was helping somebody who thought they were doing the right thing by telling the bad guy to stop roughing up his girlfriend. The baddie didn't look like a bikie, but within a couple of minutes, sure enough, he was a bikie and had a rather large possie to prove it. We were lucky to get out of there intact and untouched. He did make a point of saying he will find out who we are and come after us. Anyway, that was 6+years ago and he still hasn't found me. But my point is, I dont think I would get involved in anybodies business like that again, unless I knew somebodies life was at risk, then sure anybody would step in, just like that business man who got shot in Sydney CBD about a year ago by that Biker who was doing the same thing, beating up his girlfriend in the middle of the day, pulled his gun out and chk chk boom. Shot the business dude, shot the backpacker and shot the girl. 1 dead, 2 injured with bullet wounds. Most people would respond the same way these poor guys did, but you just don't know what your getting yourself into. No Martial arts or Close quarter combat skills are gonna help you out here. Get me an iron man suit, and I'm in, but I guess you gotta do what you gotta do Charles despite what advice you are given.
9/9/09 11:31 AM
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Member Since: 12/12/06
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maybe start your own licensed security company and offer your services for free to local council...?

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