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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> I hate rollercoaster hands


9/2/09 1:26 AM
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andre
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I was on the button with AK suited. The player to my right ALWAYS makes huge raises with marginal cards preflop. Most of the time I just call with premium hands and see the flop, but since everyone else folded to her and I was on the button I decided to raise her $100 on top of her $35 preflop bet. The blinds folded and she hesitated before asking if I would be willing to check down the rest if she called. I should have kept my mouth shut, but I figured AK is a great starting hand if you are guaranteed to see 5 cards and I'm fairly certain I've got her beaten preflop. I told her I would check it down. She called and turned over AQ offsuit (her best hand of all the times Ive seen her raise)

The flop has a Q and Im feeling beaten. The turn is my wonderful K and Im celebrating. The river was another Q and Im miserable again.

The only consolation is that I never would have seen the turn if we hadnt agreed to check it down, so I shouldnt be too disappointed, but the tease was a killer.
9/4/09 3:41 PM
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joe canada
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This one you deserve. Never agree to preflop deals, you lose all 'play' on the hand. Had you flopped an A, you would have made a lot of money. Had you not agreed, you would have won the hand on the flop. Had you not agreed and the flop came with a Q, you wouldn;t have lost a nickel more than you would have by agreeing.

I'm in an ornery mood today ;)
9/4/09 5:15 PM
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billid
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joe canada - This one you deserve. Never agree to preflop deals, you lose all 'play' on the hand. Had you flopped an A, you would have made a lot of money. Had you not agreed, you would have won the hand on the flop. Had you not agreed and the flop came with a Q, you wouldn;t have lost a nickel more than you would have by agreeing.

I'm in an ornery mood today ;)

 Had he not agreed he would have lost. 

Unless for some reason this loose player decided to check call the flop hoping to get paid then saw the king and got scared and folded...which I don't see happening with the size the c-bet would have had to be.

The 3bet wasn't bad, agreeing to call down was.  You've just mixed aggression with passive play in one move.  Especially with an unmade hand, I'd rather push her off her hand on the flop than let her have a chance to beat me.  Not only that but she showed a lot of weakness by saying this so you really were giving her a chance to win vs what would have been concieved as a strong hand if you said no.

I would never play this way but you could have done this with a low pocket pair, then you have a bit of an advantage in the fact that if the flop dropped a high card or two and she was capable of leading out with a 3/4 pot bet,  you wouldn't have been pushed off the hand early with a winnable hand and even if she hit the flop AK or AQ you'd still have a chance to win the pot.  But after telling you she didn't want to put anymore money in the pot that was a green light to c-bet the flop and get her out.... unless of course she was making a huge play on you and backed out of the agreement once you said yes then went all in on the flop, which sounds like an interesting play you should try on her next time! lol
9/5/09 11:32 AM
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joe canada
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Oops! Flop came a Q not a K -- so you lose the hand regardless -- my bad.

But there is extrememly limited upside, and a large loss of potential gains by agreeing to the deal.

Oh, and if I don't make a deal on one hand, I won;t make a deal on another (as in a small pocket pair or suited connectors). That, while legal, is douchy
9/6/09 1:23 AM
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PR
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The player to my right ALWAYS makes huge raises with marginal cards preflop. Most of the time I just call with premium hands and see the flop,


Andre, this is very very suboptimal. You should be regularly reraising him, with any hand that you think is ahead of his range that he raises, and plus with some speculative hands, and sometimes with total garbage.

You want to own this guy? Reraise him with garbage (in a spot you think is likely to get him to fold preflop) then show the bluff.
9/6/09 1:25 AM
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PR
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joe canada - This one you deserve. Never agree to preflop deals, you lose all 'play' on the hand.


+1.

Why would you let a poor player avoid making decisions? By agreeing to the deal, you were literally flushing money down the toilet.
9/7/09 7:46 PM
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joe canada
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PR - 
The player to my right ALWAYS makes huge raises with marginal cards preflop. Most of the time I just call with premium hands and see the flop,


Andre, this is very very suboptimal. You should be regularly reraising him, with any hand that you think is ahead of his range that he raises, and plus with some speculative hands, and sometimes with total garbage.

You want to own this guy? Reraise him with garbage (in a spot you think is likely to get him to fold preflop) then show the bluff.


God how I hate agreeing with PR, but once again, he's bang on.

I reraise people like this as a matter of course with any hand I want to play, and will RARELY smooth call. But, like crossing the road, I look left and right before making that raise. If a tight player who normally folds preflop has limped in early before this guy, be on the lookout for the check-raise behind you. In this spot, I might just call and see what the tightster does. If he bumps it, I'm done with the hand.

See, I KNOW I likely have the best hand preflop, so I make him pay for his idiocy and take control of the hand in position.

This is one of those rare situations where I will almost always take the same line on the flop. If he calls pre and then bets the flop, I raise. If he checks the flop to me, I bet.

He knows he's playing with crap, and he knows I've been folding to him a lot so my raise tells him he's beat. I'll convince him on the flop that he was right -- he's toast. Unless he's a complete idiot, he will need AA, KK two pair or a set to take this hand from me, and that is going to happen rarely enough that I still have profit from bullying him in all the other hands. And if I hit a monster while he has one of those hands, well, after laying down to me all night I'm felting him.

Unlike PR, I will almost never show this guy a bluff. A guy who raises big pre with all sorts of nonsense, but folds to my reraises is money in my pocket. I don't want him feeling he has to play back at me. There are usually too many other people at the table sitting back waiting to pick us off if we get into it. I would rather just keep earning from him. Different strokes for different folks.
9/8/09 12:32 AM
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PR
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"Unlike PR, I will almost never show this guy a bluff. "

I almost never show my cards, but my objective is to set up a monster pot with this particular guy, and showing there sets that up.
9/8/09 1:53 AM
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joe canada
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I completely see that side of it, and have done the same myself.

But in a full ring with a guy like this, there is a downside to getting in a pissing contest -- others are sitting back waiting to pick you both off when it lights up.

I can bluff him off quite a few hands knowing he's playing trash, but once I show him the bluff, he will more than likely start playing back at me (as you correctly point out). So now I'm in a big pot with a modest holding and *oops!* a third player just bumped us both. Or worse, he called in position. Now I can't play most hands if the first guy bets into me, as I have the guy behind me and I don't know what the hell he got into this mess with, but it's likely better than my crap, so I'd best fold -- what do I do if the guy behind me squeezes us?

Nah, most times I prefer to let the idiot think I'm on a hot streak of cards. He'll eventually get fed up with it anyway and play back sooner or later, at which time I can get that monster pot you were mentioning, but with much more of his money already in my pocket.
9/26/09 9:26 AM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Players tend to play "gentlemanly" against female players.
9/28/09 1:44 AM
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WrestlingSucks
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I played at a table at a casino where a chick accidently tossed the wrong chip on the table. Everyone agreed to fold to her so she could get her money back...then the guy who was big blind silently called her hand while everyone at the table called him a douche bag.

He called with J 3 of clubs and she had like King six or some such. He hits his jack and silently collects his large pot as an asian woman next to him calls him a dirty cocksucker.

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