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Jen >> Rickson seminar - Bolo, thoughts?


9/30/09 12:12 PM
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Kneeblock
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 Helio once said "I'd rather teach a dummy than a smart person any day."
9/30/09 1:10 PM
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Bolo
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Eel,

The thinking that higher level players do is not the same thinking that lower level players do. For many lower level players, thinking is more along the lines of what was the technique they were taught, which of those techniques they should use, what were the steps and details to the techniques, etc.... This happens because their techniques are not second nature yet and they don't quite understand how to react to what they feel rather than what they see or think.

For higher level players, thoughts in regards to technique come in intermittent flashes. Their thoughts are more focus on what they feel in their own bodies and what they feel coming from their opponent's bodies. In addition, their thoughts are on strategies that are constantly adapting based on the input of what they are feeling and experiencing.

No one can consistently predict exactly what is going to happen several moves ahead. It just feels like it because more experienced players, since they have more experience, have a greater knowledge base so there are fewer situations for which they don't have move to do, their reactions are reflexive so their reactions are so fast that it seems like they knew what you were going to do, and they have done certain techniques so many times on so many different people that they remember patterns of reactions that most commonly occur. Higher level players can predict what an opponent may do up to a certain point based on what they feel when reading an opponent, but such predictions can't go too far ahead, especially if they have never trained with that person before. Of course an instructor can predict much furhter ahead in regards to what a student does since he trains with the student all the time and knows exactly what he has taught to the student.
9/30/09 2:27 PM
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None So Blind
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I may be going out on a limb here in at least a couple ways, but it is interesting (to me, anyway) to note that the parts of the brain that control skilled movement (say, for example, high level BJJ, or perhaps bike riding, or even typing, if you're pretty fast at it) are very different and quite far from the parts of the brain controlling simple voluntary movement, especially "conscious" movement (e.g., picking up a piece of trash, opening your refridgerator, etc.).

My particular field of brain study is limited to higher cognitive functions like memory, problem-solving, etc., so this is pretty far outside my area of expertise. That said, it's not a big stretch to say that simple movement is typically under the control of the motor strip in the frontal lobe (essentially a semi-circular strip that goes from one ear over your head to the other ear), along with basal ganglia connections, while highly skilled movement is more the purview of the cerebellum (base of the skull).

It seems pretty straightforward to say that repetition/practice of a movement moves it from cortical control (frontal lobe) to cerebellar control, something that we can all see in the black belts that can carry on a complex conversation while destroying someone, while a newbie has to concentrate intently just to execute the steps in a simple side control escape on a non-resisting partner.

Obviously, something under cerebellar control frees up your conscious mind for other things like strategy formation, assessing the opponent's fatigue level, etc.

Problem is, just because something is more automatic doesn't mean it's perfect, you can still screw it up, especially when distracted - case in point, many car wrecks - most people have automated driving pretty well, but throw in other stuff as distractions, and bad things might happen. I'd imagine fighters have the same issue when they first hit a roaring crowd, and that fries their thinking...

Just random ramblings while I'm waiting in the office  :-P
10/4/09 3:32 AM
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m.g
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Rorion's sons, Renner and Ryron, have a visual flow chart in their Gracie Combatives DVD set.
10/4/09 4:06 AM
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Bolo
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Personally, I have never found flow charts to be useful in BJJ training.
10/4/09 9:08 PM
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m.g
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^^Why not?
10/5/09 10:52 AM
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None So Blind
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Perhaps because there are so many options at any given time, a really good and complete flowchart would be mind-bogglingly massive and complex?

Tangent - I remember John Danaher (by all accounts, a very sharp cat) saying he thought that while "algorithmic jiujitsu" (i.e., another way of saying BJJ via flowchart) had its positive points, on the whole he didn't prefer it. IIRC, I think it was in response to someone asking him about Eddie Bravo's rubber guard flowchart....

10/5/09 9:12 PM
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cincibill
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My guess is that flow charts don't convey the facets of the game that we have noted as important, it is more of a go from this technique to that technique concept rather than:

Connection, Structure, Neutrality, Yielding, purpose of the movement, efficient vs. inefficient, the intangible concepts like timing, strategy and rhythm; posture alignment and deviations, bio-mechanics, etc.
10/5/09 10:01 PM
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Bolo
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In my opinion, it's like the "food pyramid". When people ate, who actually visualized, followed, based their diet, or even thought about the food pyramid?
10/6/09 6:52 PM
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m.g
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Bolo,

What you say may be true however that doesn't mean "food pyramid" is useless.

In my view flow charts, mind maps etc are good guides and models. But they are not rules or laws. They are just "tangible" visual representation of a process that is often abstract and unseen.

I uses a flow chart when I study/practice the concepts and principles of physics. Sometimes it is good to SEE how concepts/principles interrelated and interact.
10/7/09 2:47 AM
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Bolo
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There are certain things in physics that a person cannot see or feel, so making charts may help provide a visual representation. However, in BJJ, you can either see or feel most of what is happening.
10/7/09 2:41 PM
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None So Blind
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 So perhaps flowcharts are like notes, but rolling is the actual music :-)
10/7/09 3:02 PM
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Bolo
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The difference is that for some muscians, it is difficult to remember all the notes to a song, so they need to write it down and read it when they play. In BJJ, it's not really that hard to remember that when you pass guard, you can get to side control, then to the mount, etc....
10/7/09 7:43 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 10/07/09 7:53 PM
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Bolo,

Well...I guess for Bjj, flow charts would be similar to "plays" in American football or basketball. Again, in my opinion, it is just a "tangible" representation of various options and actions one could take in a given scenario or situation.

In Bjj I wouldn't say flow charts are useless. I would say they are not needful. In other words, one can live without them.
11/28/10 9:24 PM
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jrv
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Ttt, cool thread!
Imo, flow charts can be very useful as a model or hypothesis of a certain situation that can be examined and modified through testing. I think they are also useful for illustrating ones particular philosophy of certain situations so one can examine and modify the decisions one makes. For me it is a useful way to examine grappling outside of grappling for a fresh perspective

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