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Weapons UnderGround >> Suggestions for weapon retention resources?


9/22/09 3:21 PM
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rjbo71
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Can anyone suggest a good book or cd series on weapon retention (for handgun) and deployment. Who would be considered an expert? Is one as good as another? I am new to defensive handgun tactics so any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
9/22/09 6:28 PM
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krept
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I think the videos that teach the broader tactics of close range gunfighting or close quarters combat also deal with weapon retention. I've always liked Gabe Suarez simply because he does a lot of force on force stuff especially GET OFF THE X.

Here is a clip from one of his vids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH6x2Ntc

Again, there are a lot of good instructors out there, but I'm not sure how many train force on force. I know Demi Barbito does as well. FoF makes a huge difference.
9/22/09 7:53 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Gabe Suarez, FTW
9/23/09 4:12 AM
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Skpotamus
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+1 gabe suarez, also check out southnarc's material
9/23/09 11:07 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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One thing o remember, just looking at vids will not do it. On the DLO vid, it's clear that even after several tries, an officer can not overcome his conditioning and kept trying to draw before he had control and distance and getting "killed".

It will obviously take significant live training in order to learn these skills so they are functional.


9/23/09 11:23 AM
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rjbo71
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"Close-Range GunFighting" Vol. 1 and 2

"The Combative Perspective"

I am thinking about these two. Thanks guys.
9/23/09 11:31 AM
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rjbo71
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WidespreadPanic - One thing o remember, just looking at vids will not do it. On the DLO vid, it's clear that even after several tries, an officer can not overcome his conditioning and kept trying to draw before he had control and distance and getting "killed".

It will obviously take significant live training in order to learn these skills so they are functional.




I agree. But I want to have a least a little bit of knowledge to get the most out of the live training.
9/23/09 11:58 AM
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krept
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WidespreadPanic - One thing o remember, just looking at vids will not do it. On the DLO vid, it's clear that even after several tries, an officer can not overcome his conditioning and kept trying to draw before he had control and distance and getting "killed".

It will obviously take significant live training in order to learn these skills so they are functional.


Yeah, that was definitely the biggest lesson I learned in the video. Instinctively it just makes sense to get out your weapon ASAP.

A few years ago Southnarc posted some stills of a session he did with a couple of his guys, I think using a Glock with FX or Sims and said the same thing. Seeing it in DLO hammered it home, however.

Southnarc's stuff on pikal changed the way I use a blade. I haven't seen his gun videos, but have heard it's good as well. Gabe's stuff is just so comprehensive it's hard not to gravitate towards it.
9/23/09 12:07 PM
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krept
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Wanted to add, but editing quoted text screws it all up:

Instinctively it just makes sense to get out your weapon ASAP instead of creating a safe opening to deploy it. Seeing the knife attacks, I kept thinking of Vanderlei's fight against Belfort where he backed straight up and got railed.

IMO it's awesome seeing MMA practitioners incorporating weapons into their system. I think a lot of that sparring mentality is what really brought force on force gun and knifework to the forefront. Admittedly, Filipino MAs have been doing solid knifework for years (scary stuff)
9/23/09 6:15 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 09/23/09 6:22 PM
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Another 'preconditioning' problem people with guns have is they are 'stuck' into thinking the only way you can use a gun is to draw a bead and then shoot the guy. But the gun is also a hunk of metal, a club. If you're going to draw your weapon, work into your training using it as such. Hit the guy with it a few times if you're too close to deploy. It takes less precision and accuracy. Then shoot him, if necessary.

Another thing to remember is that statistics show that trying to shoot someone who is moving around is a low percentage move. That makes it that much more important to get distance and position.

LEOs have a tough time, because they're expected to 'control' the situation, warn the perp and generally defuse and use non-lethal methods.  If it were me, I'd put on my gloves before getting near any perp. And by gloves, I mean lead-shot loaded palm saps. (you can get palm or knuckle loaded versions - not legal for civilians, though) At the very least, get your cuffs out and hold them like brass knuckles.You really need an edge, even in the most innocent-looking situations.

As you can see in the DLO video, LEOs are frequently approached closely for a variety of reasons - they can't maintain personal space, given their job. IMO, in any situation where there could be a problem, I'd want to be partnered up and have a back up a distance away, so if there was trouble, it could be handled. I don't envy them having to take risks like they do on a daily basis.
   
9/24/09 4:34 PM
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BEEF & CHEESE
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Just learn to grapple. If you're trying to keep a weapon or take it away, you're grappling.
12/3/09 2:46 AM
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ironmongoose
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BEEF & CHEESE - Just learn to grapple. If you're trying to keep a weapon or take it away, you're grappling.

Nominally, yes you're grappling. But there are unique features when it comes to weapons.

Take this for instance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH6x2Ntc

I had multiple youtube vids open in tabs and flipped to this one midway to "notice" that one guy couldn't keep a decent scarf hold on the other, which I thought was pathetic. Then I saw what was actually going on.

They were both trying not to get shot by the other person.

If you've grappled with lipstick-edged training blades, you know... weapons change things.
12/3/09 4:52 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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There's a specific way to grapple with a blade and also a method of controling and grappling when you have a holstered weapon.

In the first example, the guy with the knife, compliantly freezes. IRL he could have followed him around with the blade.

In the second example, when the gun was drawn, he was close enough to hit the perp in the head with the gun, then step back and draw down on the guy (hopefully, lying on the ground at that point). Always remember your gun is also a 'club'.

In other examples the 'perp' freezes or runs straight unnaturally. Wouldn't work, though he does a J-hook, which is good. He's still too close.

I think Gabe would cringe at those if he was re-doing this video today. You must NOT deploy your weapon before you are fully in control of the 'perp' (or have a sufficient distance). That's asking to get killed.


12/3/09 10:49 AM
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ironmongoose
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Suarez and Denny "Die Less Often" series should be part of your training.

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