UnderGround Forums
 

Weapons UnderGround >> Everything you knew about edged weapons is wrong?

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

10/3/09 4:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 10/03/09 4:30 PM
Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 2785
 
Since the majority of interest in hand-held weapons in this forum is FMA derived, consider this about your weapons application.

Unlike with blunt weapons (the stick or club), the edged weapons use is not the same moves, with just a different tool in your hand.

Edged weapons concentrates your force and power and effectiveness into a point. The extreme example would be the rapier. It doesn't take much 'power' to impale the opponent.

Similarly with the point and the edge of the knife. You don't need a huge wind up, broad strokes and slashes. You only need small movements of the hand and grip (and thus a much more concentrated movement plane of the tip of the knife) in contrast to the movement of the FMA stick (1-12, for example).

If you experiment with a timer or just your partner holding out a pad, get a wooden dowel about the length of your knife and a comfortable diameter for your grip. Have the partner hold up a target, cardboard or something. Have him hold it with both hands in front and when he senses your intention, jab with the knife using the standard grips, and the typical FMA #5, 6 and 7 thrusts. When he senses you about to thrust, he should move the target back. If you're very fast you may hit it only occasionally. If you have a piece of 1/2" lexan, use that, about 12x15 in piece. That way the opponent can hold it up at head level and still see through it for head strikes. You can even draw a target on it with a sharpie.

Then hold the knife (dowel) in front of you with arms folded in, aligned with your eyes like sighting down a gun barrel. Make the same attacks, but just turn your wrist (palm up/palm down). It's a much 'smaller' and less telegraphic movement. I think you'll find you can hit the pad, target much more often before your partner can move it with the smaller guage movements. (think of striking through a hole about a foot in diameter, drawn around the partner or opponet's head and upper shoulders).

Since the chief advantage of the blade or knife is its quick movement, and 'hard-to-see attacks, this is what one wants to maximize. Think of epee fencing moves where the blade is directed into various targets by subtle movements of the grip, and very little arm movement. It comes 'right down the pipe' and is thus hard to see (depth perception cues lacking).

Thus, reconsider you knife fighting practice in light of this 'small moves', centerline, narrow gauge moves and not the large, long slashing we typically see in knife sparring.

(Note, as I've mentioned before, 'knife dueling' and knife fighting is a rare thing, so for the purposes of this discussion, I'm talking about that, not prison yard shanking or ambush attacks, as an exercise in this 'art form'.)

10/4/09 7:21 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MobutuHari
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/19/08
Posts: 3021
^Agree. I think the philosophy towards it has been overly simplified over time.

I always thought the movements were 'similar' not 'the same'. Not many people make that distinction. For instance, you'll move 45 degrees to evade a stick, a punch, and a stab with a knife . . but doesn't necessarily mean all of the defense is the same. Similar movement but not identical.

Most people don't make a distinction either between hacking, slashing, and cutting impacts either.
10/6/09 11:40 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
New2MMA
42 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/13/03
Posts: 2846
I was always taught that it was the principles that were the same (defang the snake, use of the live hand in medium range, etc) moreso than the techniques? Anyway, very good OP.
10/8/09 12:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 2794
New2MMA - I was always taught that it was the principles that were the same (defang the snake, use of the live hand in medium range, etc) moreso than the techniques? Anyway, very good OP.
IMO, the techniques you see in FMA deserve a re-analysis.

When you look at the DogBrothers sparring, you don't see alive hand, you don't see the right kind of attacks. IMO, this is because almost everyone goes about knife sparring in the wrong way, the wrong method. There's a definite progression, and just getting a six or eight inch blade and swiping at your 'opponent' isn't going to help anyone improve.

It's understandable, partly because people get confused by 'stage fighting'. What you see on TV is not accurate. When people really fight with blades and swords, there's no 'clashing' of the blades, for example.


 
10/10/09 1:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
phauna
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 249
I don't understand what you are describing, WP, got any video of that? Are we talking the ray floro sort of icepick jabbing style?
10/11/09 1:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 2800
Simply put, the knife is a force multiplier - the movements don't need to be wide and slashing as you see many FMA practitioners doing. Anything which is a 'big movement' is a telegraph.

I'm a big fan of Ray Floro.


10/12/09 12:01 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Guerrero
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/5/06
Posts: 2180
WP, what do you think about Lynn Thompson?
10/14/09 8:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Badmonkey
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/15/07
Posts: 2682
I have "Die Less Often" and took a seminar with Ray Floro = FRAT.
10/18/09 3:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 2810
Guerrero - WP, what do you think about Lynn Thompson?
G, I've seen several of his videos. Bear in mind that the people 'sparring' with him are his employees.

Look at his vids on youtube. Is he training with 'aliveness' or is he just going 30-40% with a compliant opponent? Does he allow himself three moves and two steps every time the 'opponent' extends his arm (one move)? If so, it's not realistic and not worth a lot. Many, many SD moves work at 30-80% but totally fail at 100%. Many moves look great as 'one steps' or 'three-step sparring' but you never see them at 100%.


10/18/09 3:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 2811
Here's a pretty good vid with Anthony DeLongis who is a very good swordsman in the classic tradition. I think basing one's knife fighting on classic saber is a reasonable idea, but it may not be applicable to "fighting" with very small blades (under 10 inches).

I use 'fighting' in quotes, because it's extremely rare to find a situation involving knife dueling. Most knife fights are from ambush. Still, it's fun and instructive to train in this as a hobby.



10/18/09 4:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 2812
If I were to advise someone who really wanted to become skilled in bladed combat, I do it like this.

First, while young, join a fencing club. Learn classic fencing with saber, and epee, which is the Italian school in most cases. Get a good grounding in fencing theory and practice, learn the five parries, acquire a fast lunge, compete against other good players. Though heavily rule-based, it is 'alive' training, and will develop the reflexes and footwork.

From there, you can layer another style, either the Spanish school, or FMA, or even Kendo. Having a good base, you'll know what works and what doesn't. I'd generally avoid, or at least take with a grain of salt any training that involved a lot of one-step sparring, or anything which does not involve progressive resistance, footwork, timing and intent. Another good art to learn, if you can find a good teacher is Krabi-Krabong, primarily for the footwork and their concept of forward pressure.

Those trying to get it from a few seminars with no 'base art' (such as kendo or classical italian or western fencing) will not be as successful.

Of the modern schools, 'Nova Scrimia' an Italian school which uses moves very similar to Escrima is quite good. (see the video above)


10/23/09 9:05 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
phauna
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 258
So you can't learn anything just by trying to hit each other while sparring? I don't have time to join a fencing club.
12/3/09 2:38 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ironmongoose
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/17/02
Posts: 6641
Badmonkey - I have "Die Less Often" and took a seminar with Ray Floro = FRAT.

I keep seeing FRAT on OG, and have never understood what it meant.
12/3/09 3:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kai Tremeche
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/6/00
Posts: 22220
Ray Floro is pretty much the bullet.
12/8/09 8:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MobutuHari
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/19/08
Posts: 3091
WidespreadPanic - 
New2MMA - I was always taught that it was the principles that were the same (defang the snake, use of the live hand in medium range, etc) moreso than the techniques? Anyway, very good OP.
IMO, the techniques you see in FMA deserve a re-analysis.

When you look at the DogBrothers sparring, you don't see alive hand, you don't see the right kind of attacks. IMO, this is because almost everyone goes about knife sparring in the wrong way, the wrong method. There's a definite progression, and just getting a six or eight inch blade and swiping at your 'opponent' isn't going to help anyone improve.

It's understandable, partly because people get confused by 'stage fighting'. What you see on TV is not accurate. When people really fight with blades and swords, there's no 'clashing' of the blades, for example.


 

In Southern Moro styles I've seen there were no live hand being used. My teachers told me, "Don't use it if you don't have to." In fact, I don't recall our group using it much often unless someone tried a live hand disarm.

The old Manoys who taught where I learned taught motion not concepts. "Defang the snake" is a thing people overly conceptualized . . well everything pretty much became overly conceptualized and academic. Fifteen years ago when I started with our group, nobody really hit for the hand, we hit for the head. Major was always first if possible over minor. Now everybody seems to be into "defanging the snake."

On top of that the old manoys I was around were pretty pragmatic. Not much moves, not much talk. Another thing - blocking with the back of the arm to prevent 'artery cuts' was not a MUST do. We would start off that way . .and then later deviate into things that would probably work using gross motor skills in stressful situations.

In any case no technique was LAW back then. The bottomline was to pay attention and to use what worked. There was no right or wrong if the timing was on.
12/10/09 6:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GAMMAMtl
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/09
Posts: 5
Once we have had the luxury of having seen some one else do something we have not yet had to do ourselves, we get to make all these disingenuous comments about how we would have done it better or from another angle etc.

The fact of the matter is that just learning something will not automatically make it possible. There are always a couple of things that stand in our way. First is the guts it takes to face an (armed) opponent. There is no training for this. You got it or you don't. Second is the will to act when the opportunity has presented itself.

I am not as much offended by what is being suggested by the title of this thread as I am amused by the idea that you can think to somehow remove the volatile emotions that overwhelm you in a bladed encounter (or anything that might seem to threaten your life) and reduce the whole of the experience to an advanced game of tag.

When I was younger and worked as a doorman I was attacked by a knife wielding attacker for the first time. I somehow managed to get his knife away from him. If I had not been pulled off the guy I might have killed him because of how enraged I was at that moment. My blood still boils when I think of it.
12/10/09 6:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GAMMAMtl
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 12/10/09 6:36 PM
Member Since: 10/14/09
Posts: 6
Double Post
12/15/09 1:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3185
GAMMAMtl -
The fact of the matter is that just learning something will not automatically make it possible. There are always a couple of things that stand in our way. First is the guts it takes to face an (armed) opponent. There is no training for this. You got it or you don't. Second is the will to act when the opportunity has presented itself.

I am not as much offended by what is being suggested by the title of this thread as I am amused by the idea that you can think to somehow remove the volatile emotions that overwhelm you in a bladed encounter (or anything that might seem to threaten your life) and reduce the whole of the experience to an advanced game of tag.
First, you're preaching to the choir - read my other threads on bladed weapons defense and use.

ALSO, note the title of the thread has a QUESTION MARK. It's about a discussion of what we've been taught.

I've trained in weapons, knife fighting in particular, and FMA since 1980. I may not have the skills of a good FMA fighter, like the Dog Brothers, but I am able to analyze the technique and I can see things that are being done wrong.

If you differ, then give SPECIFICS. To just say 'I'm offended' (or not), tells us NOTHING.

Thanks!

 
12/17/09 5:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
phauna
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 269
GAMMAMtl - There are always a couple of things that stand in our way. First is the guts it takes to face an (armed) opponent. There is no training for this. You got it or you don't.


This is definitely untrue. With skill comes confidence. With repeated exposure to stress and adrenaline you will be able to cope better or at least know the feeling well enough to be able to do something.
12/17/09 1:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3212
phauna - 
GAMMAMtl - There are always a couple of things that stand in our way. First is the guts it takes to face an (armed) opponent. There is no training for this. You got it or you don't.
This is definitely untrue. With skill comes confidence. With repeated exposure to stress and adrenaline you will be able to cope better or at least know the feeling well enough to be able to do something.
I would respectfully disagree. Look at the training they give in the Armed Forces, yet a large number of the weapons carried by troops durng D-Day were unfired.

You just can not completely simulate the stress of facing an armed opponent who is hell bent on trying to kill you in training.

Some people respond well, some freeze up. You don't know which until you face it.  Thus the term 'combat-hardened'.

Even so, in Vietnam, many of the guys on patrol would just hide behind a log and fire their weapons into the brush, never knowing if they hit anything. It's not at all like you see in the movies. Few people IRL are like Audie Murphy.

 
12/18/09 3:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
phauna
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 271
I don't see why you have to completely experience something to feel what it's like. If you do boxing sparring then you are going to be calmer when you are getting punched. Do wrestling and you will chill out during a clinch. Granted the only thing close for weapons would be a shock knife, but surely people who spar seriously with weapons experience enough fear to get conditioned to it. I suspect the dog brothers are quite capable coping with the fear of live weapons.

Perhaps the people behind the logs didn't want to hurt people and didn't want to be there. Very different from a one to one encounter in a zero sum game.
12/18/09 5:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GAMMAMtl
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/09
Posts: 8
Your statement that "people who spar seriously with weapons experience enough fear to get conditioned to it" is correct.

They get some experience by "experiencing".
The training is not for the removal of fear, just the acceptance of it. Fear is that age old instinct that keeps us humans alive. When we are afraid, we secrete adrenaline and endorphins. We react more quickly and we live more in the moment and painful things seem to hurt less. Classic fight or flight.

Another question is what training method is most effective under these training conditions. Tougher to answer because, mostly "Those who know, dont talk (much), and those who talk don't know".
12/18/09 5:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 12/18/09 5:43 PM
Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3225
 A better way to put it is you don't know how you react to the real thing until you're in it. Your training partner is not trying to kill you. You are not in a position where you might have to kill.

Note how they say some MMA guys look great in training, but when they get in the ring they have trouble performing, bringing their A game. Not sure if it's all adrenaline dump, performance anxiety, intangibles.

But it's going to be even worse with weapons for SOME people. Yes, many people go right in and fight like they train. If we knew all there is to know about this, we wouldn't bet on fights - it would happen like it should 'on paper'. But, frequently, it doesn't work out.

Yes, training as close to 100% (which is actual fighting) conditions you. But see above. Not everyone reacts the same - it's certainly better than no experience. The reflex gap, tunnel vision, may  happen sometimes and not other times.

Note how the special forces do it. They not only insist on high-level training, they also do simulations which are as close as possible to the final scenario. They're going to raid a camp, they build a duplicate camp and practice with live fire. Then they hope they perform. Leave as little up to chance as possible. The extent to which there is a 'training gap' will manifest in real situations. (Murphy's Law)
 
12/18/09 9:24 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GAMMAMtl
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/09
Posts: 9
Special forces are not "the norm" by any standards. The personnel have already proven their fighting spirit just to get into the group. Determination and self discipline are given prerequisites along with the ability to follow orders.

Most mortals practicing FMA are just your average Joes who hope the stuff will work if they need it to.
12/24/09 12:15 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3244
GAMMAMtl - Special forces are not "the norm" by any standards. The personnel have already proven their fighting spirit just to get into the group. Determination and self discipline are given prerequisites along with the ability to follow orders.

Most mortals practicing FMA are just your average Joes who hope the stuff will work if they need it to.
I'd have to disagree in part. SF guys are just people who have guts, determination and that special quality of being able to survive. They are not 'super fighters'. Their training is primarily based on their weapon, handgun, rifle, and in specialties, UDT, escape and evasion, and other similar things. Some do go in for extra H2H, but for most, they're training their primary weapon(s).

Also, people who are good at following orders sometimes have trouble thinking for themselves. But not to get off track. My thrust was not to suggest SF guys are any example - I'm talking about types of training.

So please don't miss my point, and that is you must closely simulate the situation in training that you expect to encounter in the field. It's not always possible. By this I don't really mean RBSD, but it is an effective -layer- on top of your base art(s). Furthermore there will always be a 'gap' - is one the type that freezes or the type that reacts. Depends highly on the situation.
 

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.