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JKD UnderGround >> Judo man serves a good ol fashion beating to punks


10/7/09 1:22 PM
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BreakerOfNations
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Judo champ jailed in train station beating

Jaxon Van Derbeken, Chronicle Staff Writer

Saturday, October 3, 2009

(10-02) 13:55 PDT MENLO PARK --

Matthew Walker, 25, of Tacoma, Wash., won his category in the 2009 President's Cup tournament held in June by USA Judo, the sport's governing body in this country. On Friday, however, he was in San Mateo County Jail on $100,000 bail stemming from the late-night incident at the Menlo Park train station.

Walker, who is 6 feet 3 inches tall and 275 pounds, is to be arraigned Monday in San Mateo County Superior Court in Redwood City.

According to prosecutors, the shorter, lighter victim, a 25-year-old man, and his 23-year-old friend from New York met Walker and a second man, Robert Davis, 22, of Redwood City, after they all got off the Caltrain headed home from a Giants game Tuesday night.

The Menlo Park man approached Walker - who was wearing a judo jacket - and they struck up a conversation about their shared passion, prosecutors said. The man had some training in aikido, prosecutors said.

"They start playing around - it gets out of hand from the victim's perspective and the victim asks Walker to stop," said Deputy District Attorney Morris Maya. "The play, or whatever it is, escalates and the victim says, 'Cut it out, this isn't funny anymore.' "

The New York man pulled out his cell phone either to photograph or film the confrontation. Davis, according to Maya, grabbed the phone and passed it to Walker.

Walker then allegedly demanded $20 to give it back.

Maya said the Menlo Park man then pulled out his own cell phone to call 911. Walker grabbed that phone, dropped it to the platform and Davis picked it up, Maya said.

"Both Walker and Davis then attacked the victims and beat them severely," Maya said.

The Menlo Park man ended up with a broken leg and facial wounds, Maya said. The New York victim was knocked out.

Menlo Park police saw the second victim wandering in the street and began an investigation. Both men were taken to hospitals for treatment.

Davis and Walker were found walking through a parking lot nearby. Police saw Walker tossing items into a garbage can that turned to be one of the victim's cell phones, prosecutors said.

Both men were charged with assault and robbery. Davis is free on $50,000 bail, and Walker is trying to hire a lawyer.

"Obviously, somebody who has a pretty substantial background certainly got carried away," Maya said. "It turned into a scenario when the defendant was more interested in demonstrating his dominance."

E-mail Jaxon Van Derbeken at jvanderbeken@sfchronicle.com.

This article appeared on page C - 1 of the San Francisco Chronicle

from http://www.sfgate.com/
10/8/09 2:43 PM
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New2MMA
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What a pair of assholes. Unbelieveable.
10/9/09 9:48 PM
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John Frankl
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1.Judo guy: Sounds like an asshole mixed with steroids and/or alcohol.

2. Aikido guy: totally delusional.
10/10/09 9:33 AM
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Scott Elliott
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Aikido guys are totally delusional and, yes, many of them think that they are similar to judo. Only better.

We had an "aikidoka" come in just the other day and asked if he'd be allowed to use his "aikido throws" in class because he's learned some pretty cool throws as an aikido black belt. The front desk girl, a blue belt who competes, and wins, in NAGA and other events say's "sure". He gets this look on his face that just reeks of "sweet". You can just imagine how is envisioning himself coming in and just owning the entire gym.

Needless to say, we are looking very forward to him coming in to class. Especially some of the Aikido converts in the class!
10/10/09 3:16 PM
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BreakerOfNations
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so how do you know he wont be able to surprise people and pull off some of those throws once he gets more rounded ala machida?
10/11/09 6:40 PM
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Scott Elliott
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Edited: 10/11/09 6:43 PM
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"so how do you know he wont be able to surprise people and pull off some of those throws once he gets more rounded ala machida?"

Because, Pauper/A&B, as I already stated we have several Aikido converts in the gym. Some who are black belts and are also police officers that have learned the hard way that their aikido training is not the most effective option against someone who is really fighting back. When someone comes to our gym, they are free to use pretty much ANY method they want in sparring as long as common rules are agreed upon. The aikido guys find out real fast that trying to pull off a kote gashi to reverse someone mounted on you or even against a simple collar tie is a dumb idea.

It's not that their techniques couldn't work under the most ideal circumstances, it's just HIGHLY unlikely. We focus on probabilities, not possibilities. Those who open their minds enough find that there are many more technique options that are much more effective and much more efficient under real fighting conditions than what is trained in aikido. Simple as that.

But, you never know. Maybe someone will come along that is able to make it work for them. If so, more power to them. However, in almost 20 years of having our gym open, it's not happened yet.
10/11/09 8:27 PM
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John Frankl
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I'm with Scott here. And it's not because US aikido is watered down compared to Japan.

When I was training at Gracie Japan (now Axis BJJ), they had many high ranking aikidoka coming through to give BJJ a try. I rolled with quite a few 4th and 5th dans, both Japanese and not, who were young and big enough to make things work, if anyone could. Some were studying/teaching at the HQ. And, best of all, we always started on our knees, a position they actually practice frequently, and from which they have all sorts of fancy techniques. All were handled gently like the rank beginners they were. None of them really even attempted, much less pulled off, anything resembling what you see in every aikido demo.
10/12/09 3:26 PM
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BreakerOfNations
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Edited: 10/12/09 3:26 PM
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you cant compare aikido to grappling or kickboxing. it is designed for completely different settings and it would require some real expert (like machida the best at karate maybe in the world) to be able to convert and adapt the move-set to sport training. They mostly train for un gloved and committed attacks and for someone running at you full speed for instance like you see meat heads do outside bars sometimes. its not designed for someone really even in a stance. It also is good for weapons and committed weapon attacks (not jabs with a knife those you just parry and wait for a commited attack). MMA doesnt even train for defense against weapons (jkd does sometimes though). And imo tai chi is really the only style that could beat machida, he is so unbeatable by mma now no one in sport fighting can touch him. But that is because a master of tai chi doesnt have to chase him, he juist sticks and hes on him already.
10/12/09 3:28 PM
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BreakerOfNations
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anyway you are just as closed minded as the stereotype tma people, and tma is back now whether you like it or not since Machida popularized it and also Vitor Belfort is training karate for fights now (saying out of any of his mma styles he is training it most).
10/13/09 8:20 AM
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Scott Elliott
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Pauper, you never change. You and your silly posts really aren't worth my time. Believe what you want to believe. In the words of Matt Thornton, "If someone wants to believe in the Easter Bunny, you are not going to change their mind even if you could PROVE there is no Easter Bunny". (paraphrased)

Enjoy your training. Go study karate, aikido and tai chi and the best of luck.

However, keep your spamming off the JKD forum for your posts and threads will simply be deleted until you are banned again.
10/13/09 10:26 AM
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Scott Elliott
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^^^^Sure, I can get on on board with that. Aikido guys are good at running. Even Bruce thought that their footwork was good, but it was the only thing.

One of my first students 20 years ago was a black belt in aikido. We went to the park for our first "work out" and, yes, he was very good at staying as far away from me as possible TRYING to get me to just run at him. However, as soon as I got him near the tennis court fence, he was a had lad. That's the problem. In most real life situations you don't have a large park to move around in to run from an opponent.

This same student will also tell you that he's NEVER been able to use aikido in a self-defense situation in a bar, in the street, as a marine against other marines or against the enemy during his time in Desert Storm. Instead, it's always been some basic boxing, haymakers and wrestling.

I like and totally agree with your instructors quote!
10/14/09 12:43 AM
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BEEF & CHEESE
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When Judo guys are outlawed, only outlaws will have Judo guys...
10/14/09 1:20 AM
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keseki
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What do bunnies have to do with Easter, which originally referred to the 40 days search for Osiris (and later, like some other Pagan periods of fesitive celebration, drunkenness, and promiscuity, was incorporated, in somewhat more sanitized form, into Christianity.) This notion that Easter has something to do with rabbits is just a stereotype.

However, serious questions for those in the know: Could aikido "work" if you already are pretty good at BJJ? Why bother with it, you say? Maybe you just want a gentler, less prosecutable, option for certain non-lethal situations, confrontations, and encounters.
10/14/09 6:26 AM
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Scott Elliott
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^^^St. Peter, whom Christ put in charge of his church, was actually a rabbbit. (Peter Rabbit)Geez, don't you watch South Park?

As to your second question, the short answer is "no". As I said earlier, anything "can" work, but most likely not. I didn't want to go into a lengthy answer as to the "why nots", but if someone is really interested we can start a new thread.
10/17/09 9:09 PM
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jrrrrr
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There are different schools of aikido. Some are really not meant to be a self defense martial art, but a way of finding yourself/universe.
Some (daito ryu for example)are more martial and have more of a mix of strikes (atemi's), tighter circles/locks and are more aggressive in training.
Like any other MA, its more of how you are training that matters as much as the specific MA you are training in.
10/18/09 8:03 AM
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John Frankl
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Daito Ryu is a style of Aiki (ju)jutsu, not Aikido. Although it is one of the primary styles Ueshiba studied before founding Aikido.

That said, it is no less hokey. In some ways, it is worse, since at least some portion of Aikido practitioners openly admit that what they are doing has not relationship to fighting.
10/18/09 3:36 PM
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BreakerOfNations
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so what does it have relationship to? And why would the japanese use it effectively for many years against foreign invasions if it wasnt ever useful? All the ma that arent useful would have been discarded long ago. I think every art is useful and the ones that arent just didnt survive time.
10/19/09 5:09 AM
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John Frankl
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"so what does it have relationship to? And why would the japanese use it effectively for many years against foreign invasions if it wasnt ever useful? All the ma that arent useful would have been discarded long ago. I think every art is useful and the ones that arent just didnt survive time."

I'm glad you asked, because this is one of the major fallacies of many traditional martial arts.

First, it already was "discarded long ago" by the Japanese themselves, at least for the purposes you mention. That is, the Japanese military (self defense forces?) has been using guns for quite some time now, not swords, and certainly not wrist locks and "breath throws."

Second, as to why it would still be practiced, just go and watch Civil War reenactors in the States. They do it BECAUSE it is old and outdated and would NEVER survive for practical purposes. Some of them may be bit kooky, but none kooky enough to discuss the effectiveness of a muzzle-loading rifle in an age of automatic weapons.

This argument for kung-fu and aikijutsu and the like--"It worked for hundreds of years on the battlefield, etc."--is just silly. Lots of things "worked" for 100s of years, including horse-drawn wagons. But if you argue for the comparative advantage of wagons over modern automobiles you are a Quaker or otherwise deliberately ignoring certain salient facts.
10/19/09 6:31 AM
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keseki
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Edited: 11/04/09 7:51 AM
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fatal error 404
10/19/09 5:06 PM
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Lord Kancho
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keseki - I seem to have been misunderstood. By "aikido" I meant "wristlocks." Call it Hapkido or Kuksulwon if you prefer. I'm talking about wristlocks.

And by "work" I meant "solve" the "self-defense" "problem" in an appropriate way given the circumstances". I was not thinking about high tech warfare on the modern battlefield but rather the type of situations that arise more typically (albeit infrequently) in daily and nightly life, at least for people who aren't infantry soldiers, LEOs, or secret agents.

Let me rephrase that then: Would, or could, wristlocks "work" reasonably reliably, in situations in which it would make sense to use or attempt to use them, if the individual in question happened to be pretty good at BJJ (say brown belt or above).

And again, the motivation for doing so might be a subjective assessment that doing anything more might make you worse off. Having options at the lower end of the force spectrum, in other words.

By the way, I NOT saying train aikido/hapkido/whatever and give up BJJ.


BJJ has wristlocks.

If you mean (and I think you do) chains of fancy wristlocks, one flowing into another, where the student is alternately raised on to his toes, then dropped to his knees then raised onto his toes again... those don't really work as advertised. In training, the person is LETTING you flow from lock to lock. In a real situation, he's either going to flail free or you're going to have to break his wrist.

Curiously, which a few people on this thread don't understand, BJJ has the tools to let you subdue a fully resisting person without injuring him... because that's what every single sparring match is.
10/20/09 4:29 AM
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keseki
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BJJ has wristlocks in the same way it has punches and kicks.
10/20/09 6:30 AM
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Lord Kancho
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If you mean compliance techniques, that's something else entirely. But BJJ does have wristlocks... moreso if it's a self-defense oriented BJJ.

I've studied a few arts that have compliance wristlocks and the biggest reason I don't think highly of them is they're precise motor movements. When an adrenaline dump hits you and someone's resisting, gross motor movements are pretty much all you have.

And you're very smarmy, Keseki. Particularly for someone who penned gems like this:

And by "work" I meant "solve" the "self-defense" "problem" in an appropriate way given the circumstances".
10/21/09 2:58 AM
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keseki
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smarmy?
10/21/09 3:59 PM
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Lord Kancho
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keseki - OK, BJJ has wristlocks. Where are they? Who teaches them? When and how do BJJ people practice them?


Check out the self-defense BJJ stuff, particularly the Gracies. They use wristlocks for moments when people grab your collar, throat, etc. These, imo, are the most practical applications of wristlocks. Catching someone's punch/strike and converting it into a wristlock / wrist throw is pretty unrealistic.



But I have been talking about a specific case: an already competent BJJ man, and a self-defense situation in which there is such a thing as excessive force, and in which the threat is relatively low level but nevertheless needs to be addressed (if I'm not being smarmy by saying so).


If I understand you correctly, here's my answer: wristlocks are not the only way to restrain somebody or force compliance with minimal damage. I know that with your 15 years of BJJ have ways of putting someone on the ground and holding him that would not be considered excessive force. And those same moves are the ones you can work into every sparring session.

I don't think I've ever seen a standing wristlock worked into a sparring session, even when I was in schools that put a great emphasis on them (Hapkido, JKD). They are just incredibly difficult to pull off and probably even more so when adrenalin hits you and your opponent is flailing on animal instinct.
10/22/09 3:21 AM
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keseki
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Edited: 11/05/09 4:48 AM
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Fatal Error 747

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