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Australasia UnderGround >> neck cranks in compettions?


10/19/09 6:24 PM
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Stooba
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Are these legal now in BJJ comps.
I saw can openers being used a few times at the pan pacs, with the referees saying nothing, despite spectators (coaches included) protesting.

I was thinking I should start training these more to keep up with the competition
10/19/09 6:57 PM
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byron2001
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Nope they're not allowed....

Yeah I saw a few as well here and there. I don't think the ref will say/do much unless it's actually used to submit someone
10/19/09 9:24 PM
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My1stMac
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I was told to let go the head after a take down, so you are not allowed. But it was unintentional and I did let go.
10/20/09 3:32 AM
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unclefu
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are you allowed to use the canopener as a guard pass?
10/20/09 6:55 AM
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cshadbolt
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no they do not. if your assuming that the calls at the pan pacs are the rules then a spider hook isnt a guard and spiking people on their head isnt a dq
10/20/09 10:37 AM
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geraldbb
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Can Openers aren't legal, if the refs were missing these at the Pan Pacs, then you have cause to complain, though it's a bit late now.

I just happen to have a copy of the AFBJJ rules sitting next to my PC, as I am writing some blogs on different rules and interpretations.

Regarding Neck Cranks in BJJ competition; Article 6 - Restrictions.

"Cervical locks or neck cranks are not allowed in any category. Competitors attempting a cervical lock will be immediately disqualified with no prior warnings"

Some variations deserving special mention;

Triangle pulling the Head - illegal in all children's categories and for Novice (white belts).

Frontal Neck Crank - illegal in all categories except Brown and Black Belt.

Some variations discussed at the referee's meeting and deemed illegal;

Any type of Guillotine (frontal neck crank), when no arms or shoulders are used in addition to the neck. Illegal.

Any twisting of the neck using the cup of the palm or fingers on the chin, designed to force a sweep or reverse an opponent. This is commonly used in Wrestling and MMA from side back control against a turtled or sprawled opponent. Can also be applied from Guard. All these are illegal.

Wrestler's cradle, where an underhook on the neck is used in conjunction with a grip on the glute or hamstring to curl an opponent, typically from side control or establishing a guard pass. This is OK in competition.

Hope that helps make it clear. I pulled a few guys up for Can Openers, but didn't deem anything serious enough for a DQ. I cornered a couple of guys who got neck cranked badly, and one of them earnt himself a disqualification, and deservedly so.

Best regards,

Gerald.

ps. One that doesn't come up very often, and isn't mentioned above, is 'stocks', where both arms are underhooked with the neck compromised, can be used as a sweep or reversal, and can be applied standing. I'm surprised this doesn't cause more issues, but very rarely happens in BJJ.
10/20/09 6:08 PM
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Stooba
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Thanks Gerald.
Guillotines are legal in brown/black than?
10/21/09 2:17 AM
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geraldbb
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Stooba,

That is an interesting question; initially I would have answered 'No', but then reading my own words in the post above, I have implied that they are?

Truth is I am not sure, as I don't know the clear distinction between a Guillotine and a Frontal Neck Crank?

There is an interesting debate occurring on this topic on sherdog.com btw;

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/guillotine-question-rules-897209/

My understanding for now, is that a Guillotine places an extension type force on the spinal cord in the cervical area, and this is why it is banned in competition. By using an arm in addition to attacking the neck using a guillotine, then the pressure on the neck is signifcantly reduced and the move can safely be defended and escaped, though a degree of tension on the neck is still present.

As for Frontal Neck Cranks, I assume this refers to Can Openers and the like?

Then there is the definition of Cervical Locks, these may include either of the above, or a seperate definition.

I am obviously going to learn something here, and will do some research and get back to you.

btw, I have been refereeing BJJ for over 10 years, and this is the first time this rule has been debated in so much detail, which is great for everyone's understanding and safety going forwards. It should also hopefully reduce inappropriate DQ's, and naivety on the part of competitors and coaches?

Best regards,

Gerald.
10/21/09 5:48 AM
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KingOfMyPancrase
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what about wrestlers front headlock?
10/21/09 7:40 AM
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walbjj
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this isnt a slight on teh afbjj, but i find it strange that they continue to use different rules to the ibjjf with regards to footlocks and guillotine chokes.
isnt the afbjj trying to align itself with the ibjjf competition but having the australia cup being the qualifier for the ibjjf competiion.

basically, from my understanding, white belts are allowed to do straight footlocks, i have seen this with my own eyes.
also, the guillotine choke, with no arm, just the head is illegal under the afbjj, yet im pretty sure that its a legal technique in the ibjjf. in fact, the guillotine choke is a standard in gracie jiu jitsu self defence, u need to know the choke and the defence, yet its illegal in the afbjj?? wtf

anyway, thats my main issue, teh inconsistency with rules between large organisations
10/21/09 7:47 AM
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jibjab
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Not to open a can of worms, but,..I just don't understand this "no arm in guillotine" ruling?...arm in or not, it's a guillotine and you either know how to defend it or you don't. I understand the danger of guillotines and pressures on the spine and neck and all but how friggin "soft" do we need to make the "gentle art" anyway. You still learn how to tap in the first lesson or two don't you?

And, I've seen (and put on) some harsh triangles in competition that would be far more harmful than some of the guillotines I've seen in competition.

Just my 2cents

- Juggs
10/21/09 9:50 AM
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geraldbb
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Been thinking about this a lot, it's actually fairly simple;

A correctly applied Guillotine, doesn't crank the neck, assuming head position of the submitted opponent is maintained by the attacker to remove extension or torsion of the neck. This is the case arm in, or out.

Thing is in 99% of cases additional pressure can be created by manipulating the head, by use of the armpit typically,, the upper arm, and various other means, depending on how/where it is applied from, which makes the move a neck crank, which is illegal.

Article 6 - Restrictions of the AFBJJ rules states;

Cervical Locks (without chokes), from junior through to Black Belts this is consistent.

So by banning Guillotines, the danger of incorrectly applied chokes is removed. Typically the only person who really knows if it is a true choke, or a neck crank, or a combination of the two, is the guy being submitted, and he is hardly going to be unbiased in his opinion of the outcome.

By allowing the move with the arm in, a level of safety is maintained, but it is still possible to perform a neck crank, using the arm in also.

btw, I am not getting involved in the worlds vs Pan Pacs rules argument, I don't represent PdB or the referee's and am simply speaking my own opinion and experience.

Best regards,

Gerald.

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