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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Need Help Bad


10/27/09 2:00 PM
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Zen
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Ok. Here's what I need help with. Winning online. I am absolutely horrible online. Over the past 2 years I'm up over $2k in live games, home games and casino. Online I'm down just under $2k. Everything I make live I somehow am paying back online.

Here's some info and any more that is needed let me know.
Live games I typically play $1/$2 cash games. Sometimes smaller stakes @ local home games.

Online I usually play .10/.25 or .25/.50 and mix in some $10 to $20 buyin tournaments. Usually 1 table SNGs.

I play more online because it's so much more convenient and accessible to me. The nearest casion is 3 hours away and home games usually interfere with work or family(fiancee and 2 kids.) Online is there whenever I'd like to play.

I'm just having a very hard time understanding why I can't win online consistently and build a nice bankroll.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
10/27/09 2:01 PM
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andre
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Online is much tougher, imo. I dont think there is money to be made playing 1 table online, anyway.
10/27/09 3:09 PM
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Zen
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What about it is tougher? That may be what it is.

I think the fact that it's not actually chips affects my decision making sometimes. Like it's not actual money cause I don't walk to a window and cash it out like a casino.

I just don't understand how I can win so often live but suck so bad online. I really want to figure this out because online is so much more accessible for me but I can't continue if I can't show some profit. I'll just have to save all that $ and drive to Tunica once every month or two and play higher stakes.
10/27/09 5:08 PM
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andre
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I think the players online are much more sophisticated in terms of their overall skills and are much less likely to pay you off when you have the better hand. I find online poker to be a huge grind, while live there were so many older "tourists" who think the game is no different from the one they play with their buddies while having beer and watching the game.
10/27/09 6:35 PM
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cadeswallows
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ill throw out my 2 cents.

online poker is VERY tuff. very few people are making a ton of money at it.

are you SURE that ur up over 2k live? how detailed records do you keep?? the online game doesnt lie. you can easily know exactly where you stand.

for example i deposited 2 times. the first time i put in 50 bux. i abruptly went broke. i then deposited 100. and now im up just under 5k. i know exactly how ive done.

no reason u should be down 2k. find a game u can beat and grind the shit out of it. build bankroll slowly. have patience. stop w the 10 dollar tournies until you can play tournies off of cash game or sng winnings.

get pokertracker or somethin

more later
10/27/09 7:37 PM
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walbjj
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most probably variance. u have probably played as much live poker hands as 1 session of online poker.
its true that online is tougher than live. andre mentioned it before, to play online, u need to go to the trouble of signing up, getting credit card details out and basically being motivated enough to do all that just to play poker.
whereas with live poker, u get a lot of tourists and drop ins that happen to be at the casino and think, what the heck, ill sit down, i can afford to spend $200 for some fun.
this mentality doesnt fly with online players as much.
while its true that a lot of online players do get on to blow off steam after a days work, u get a lot of grinders, that multi table.
my brother plays online exclusively, and has only played live a handful of times, will never play live again, he hates it.
saying that, he says teh online games have become tougher, yet he still makes plenty
10/28/09 4:57 AM
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PR
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Online poker is much, much harder. The players are simply much better for a bunch of reasons.
10/28/09 4:58 AM
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PR
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Get the book Theory of Poker. 100% mandatory reading. It's your only hope.
10/28/09 10:07 AM
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Zen
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I'm reading theory of poker right now. I'll probably reread it right away when I'm done.

I've been doing some digging and I play way to loose preflop online. Time to relax for awhile, do some studying and come back and grind. I know I can dig out of this hole just have to be patient and let it happen slowly.

Since 9/12/08 of last year I've kept detailed records of my wins and my losses in cash games. I had a +1000 day in Vegas in March and a +500 day @ a .50/1 home game last October. My biggest losing days were -250 and minus -150.

I have probably played 50x more hands online than I have live in the last year.

PR, I know you talk alot about bankroll management. If I have $200 online and I'm gonna multitable(which I don't now, I'd play .25/.50 or .5/1) 16 tables what stakes should I start at? .05/.10 and just grind?
10/28/09 8:54 PM
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wreckker
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play cash live and TOURNIES onlinbe

there is alot of value in satelies and tournies onlinbe and TONS of great books to learn from.


cash games online are tough only 5 % actualyy win .

10/28/09 11:54 PM
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JHR
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"play cash live and TOURNIES onlinbe"

Online cash games are my most serious leak :(

Thank god for sit and go's

Only thing keeping my nose above water right now.


LOVE LOVE LOVE the live cash games mind you. Helps that I'm on a decent rush right now after having a mediocre September.
10/29/09 4:34 AM
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PR
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Zen - PR, I know you talk alot about bankroll management. If I have $200 online and I'm gonna multitable(which I don't now, I'd play .25/.50 or .5/1) 16 tables what stakes should I start at? .05/.10 and just grind?



The thing about bankroll management is that 1) it lets you focus on playing well and less on bad/good luck, and 2) gives you time to work on your game.

With $200 the highest I would play is is 5 cent/10 cent... that gives you 20 full 100 big blind buy-ins.

I would probably start at .02/.05, thats 40 buy-ins. That should be plenty if you actively looking to improve your game, and not just playing for fun.

One of my " go to" rules is that "It's better to move down and win, then to lose".

Why play and lose at .05/.10, when you can play and WIN at .01/.02? It's just as much experience to win at .01/.02 and .02/.05 than to spend that time losing at .05/.10.

There's simply no reason to play at a level that you lose at, when online there's literally penny stakes available. Dont let ego get the best of you.

At this level you arent playing for a living, you are playing to win and IMPROVE your game.

Why try shit out at a higher limit, when you can try shit at a lower limit??
10/29/09 11:38 AM
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cadeswallows
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wrecker is that true? you think only 5% of people playing online cash games are winners?? where you here that stat? source? what game overall then do you think is the best?? sng, tournys, other games like plo? (obviuosly not cash games according to you)

im not doubting you, i just havent heard that b4.

btw? what are some satelites that a low stakes online grinder should play? u talking about tryin to get into the wsop events or like the sunday million type tournies.
10/29/09 11:54 AM
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PR
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cades - its about 7-8% of players are winners. This is directly from a person in the industry. Of course the number is kind of misleading because it includes every one-time player who deposits $50 loses it the first night, and never comes back.
10/29/09 11:54 AM
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cadeswallows
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now that i think about it i did hear some ridickulous stat awhile back that something like 90% of all online players are losing players, so that stat prolly makes sense, i just didnt realize online cash games were one of the toughest games to beat.
10/29/09 11:59 AM
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wreckker
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I do think only 5% make a profit online, rake is a biaatch. i pay 5k a month in rake playing 4 games of SLOW plo8 40 hours a week..

I dont have hard data saying the number is 5%, it could possisbly be a lil higher but its def under 10 from everyone i know in the business or long time player of online poker.

What game is best depends on your skill set, bigger buy in sitngos have a much lower ROI% than before.... good old days i was making 10 k a month 20 hours a week in sitngos..playing 3-4 at a time just cruising.  

best ROI is satelites for tournies if ur willing to grind.... the play is still very bad, there are often OVERLAYS and togteher satelites are often a great value.

cash games on SMALL sites are often better too, i occasionaly play cash atr bodog and befor doyles room and the plo8 and plo was awesome. small sites will very often get very juicy games.

PLO is a beats that can have huge variance but huge profit if ur good smart and level headed.

There are alot of OVERLAYS in tournies right now ..BODOG tourney is awesome they have 30-35k overlay EVERY week in there 100k tourney.

i finished 40th 20th and 8th last 3-4 weeks in that one....that huge of a overlay is just a great deal thats alot of free money they are putting up.

many small and medium sites have consistent overlays, look for those.

Look for overlays in big satelites for major events too, absolutes had big ovcerlays recently and even the big siotes miss their guarntesss in super satleites too.


I see aveerage pot sizes on pstars and full tilt for most cash games and they just ....suck.   get rakeback and bonuses and surf the smaller sites for better games satelites. play the bigger sites for tournies and small  sitngos if u like..
10/30/09 12:51 AM
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nhbMIKE
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pick one game to focus on, 6max cash, hu sngs, tournies ect. just find one style of poker and study the heck out of it. get a cardrunners account and study the 2+2 forum for your selected type of poker and books. and always ALWAYS play with a proper bankroll. i was a huge degen when i first started and never realy started winning untill i focused 95-100% of my efforts on one game and started using a proper bankroll guidelines. find one game, learn it and maybe eventualy master it.
10/30/09 2:16 AM
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cadeswallows
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thx for all the input. i played a little plo tonight. dont have a clue what the hell im doin but i managed to triple up.
10/30/09 2:37 AM
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Zen
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typical night for me

Play 4 $5 1 table sng's cash in 3

Play 4 more finish 4th in 3 and take brutal beats, I sucked out 1 time aq vs kj flop came qk blank hit my a on turn one tourney im dominate guy to finish in cash and he hits runner runner for flush ak vs a9 suited

heads up in last tourney and im killing guy... have ak raise he calls with 63off.. i hit a he hits 63 doubles up

next hand i flop top 2 pair.. he flops top pair with under card and hits runner runner for straight

fucking brutal. i can't help but think online is fixed sometimes.

still finsished up a tiny little bit for cashing in 4 of 8 sngs but i should've won so much more. fack.
10/30/09 9:56 AM
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Zen
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WTF... I swear I'm cursed online. Late position 1 off the button have JJ. Call a raise, BB raises with AK, I just call hoping to catch trips. Flop comes KJ blank, BB bets, middle position calls I go all in with trip jacks. BB calls with AK, middle position calls with q10s and of course hits his A on turn. Fuck, fuck, fuck. This shit is just never ending online.
10/30/09 9:56 AM
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Zen
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Did I misplay that hand? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
10/30/09 11:06 AM
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andre
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Of course not, man. You got it all in with a set against his top pair. You were an overwhelming favorite to win the hand. Anytime the villain needs runner-runner to win, you know you did the right thing.
11/2/09 4:22 AM
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PR
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Zen - WTF... I swear I'm cursed online. Late position 1 off the button have JJ. Call a raise, BB raises with AK, I just call hoping to catch trips. Flop comes KJ blank, BB bets, middle position calls I go all in with trip jacks. BB calls with AK, middle position calls with q10s and of course hits his A on turn. Fuck, fuck, fuck. This shit is just never ending online.


No offense, you likely should have reraised with your JJ preflop. Making bad plays opens the door for bad beats.
11/2/09 1:12 PM
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Bmur
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PR - 
Zen - WTF... I swear I'm cursed online. Late position 1 off the button have JJ. Call a raise, BB raises with AK, I just call hoping to catch trips. Flop comes KJ blank, BB bets, middle position calls I go all in with trip jacks. BB calls with AK, middle position calls with q10s and of course hits his A on turn. Fuck, fuck, fuck. This shit is just never ending online.


No offense, you likely should have reraised with your JJ preflop. Making bad plays opens the door for bad beats.
While I agree, that not re-raising cost him this pot in the short term, but speaking from a long term perspective doesn't he want the Q 10 guy in there as it is a profitable winning percentage for Zen?  Or am I looking at this from a retarded point of view?  I know that not every time you go all in with the best of it you will win, but isn't the goal to get it all in the most amount of times with the best winning percentage?  Eventually, if your bank roll can sustain it, that should be the most amount of money for Zen, right? 
 
11/2/09 2:44 PM
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TitoIsBACK
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Ignore PR. JJ is the worst hand in poker and you cannot play it correctly no matter what you do.

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