UnderGround Forums
 

JKD UnderGround >> self-protection/preservation - besides fighting?


11/19/09 1:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
twinkletoesCT
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/26/02
Posts: 8465
Modern Self-Defense Center, Head Instructor
 
This has come up in a couple of threads lately, so let's give it the discussion it is due:

What elements are there to self-protection and self-preservation BEYOND just the punching and kicking and throwing "bad guys"?

My initial inclination is two separate them into two groups:

1) Things relevant to an episode of violence

Three subcategories: before, during, and after.

"Before" might include verbal de-escalation, conflict avoidance, home security, workplace security, automotive security

"During" could include escape methods (Parkour? tactical driving?) and the recruitment of assistance (yelling for help? other means?)

"After" could include a variety of consequence management fields: do you need medical attention? will you need to self-treat any wounds? do you need the immediate help of law enforcement? do you need a lawyer?

2) Elements unrelated to episodes of violence

What kinds of things aid self-preservation outside of "fighting"? Off the top of my head, the following seem relevant:

Diet & Nutrition
Suitable Exercise
Healthy Movement patterning
Proper treatment of illnesses
Avoiding smoking / other vicious lifestyle choices
Sleep
Stress Management
Financial Security? (to protect the above interests) Asset protection?



How would you approach the issue of self-protection BEYOND what we train with our feet and fists?
11/19/09 1:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 2936
Great summation. Not much to add to that.
1. If you're in a location where you become concerned about SD, consider moving. (seriously)
2. If you have real SD needs you should get a firearm and a CCW;
3. If you have -real- SD needs, hire a bodyguard. They can train this stuff and have experience.

As a friend once said to me 'the people who seriously scare me are not deterred by punching, kicking or being hit with a stick'. :)
11/19/09 1:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 2937
I might add that I think a lot of what we do in the name of SD is 'fantasy'. We imagine being attacked by a certain type of person, or we imagine using our wits, guts and skill to fight off a guy who shows up in the bedroom with evil intent and we forget the aftermath and the PTSD of having to seriously or even mortally wound someone.

That's why it's best to avoid at nearly all costs. Get a dog, get a gun and pray you never have to employ either. :)

11/19/09 10:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
twinkletoesCT
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/26/02
Posts: 8467
Modern Self-Defense Center, Head Instructor
Forgot to add:

Properly storing toxic chemicals, medications, etc around the house

Drinking clean water
11/19/09 10:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
twinkletoesCT
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/26/02
Posts: 8468
Modern Self-Defense Center, Head Instructor
WidespreadPanic - I might add that I think a lot of what we do in the name of SD is 'fantasy'.


I've found myself agreeing with this more and more lately. Well said.
11/19/09 10:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Paul Hopkins
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11/19/09 10:44 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2774
The greatest words of self preservation ever spoken:
"fiddle when you can, work when you should, and thank god you're a country boy". John Denver

and

"keep on rollin' with the flow" Charlie Rich



 
11/20/09 12:48 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 1657
Good thread. Like WP mentioned, simply don't be in areas where you're worried about being attacked. For a while I was looking into body armour 'cause I was at some clubs where people had been shot. Then I just decided to stop going to those clubs. Now I avoid any place that has metal detectors - they tell me they're worried about people bringing weapons, and I know from personal experience and from talking to bouncers that weapons get past anyway. Sticking to places that aren't high risk is big.

Another thing is I only drink in very restricted circumstances, and I avoid situations where tons of people are drinking. Alcohol is often involved in any sort of attack. It also works well with generally just staying healthy.

Segueing into staying healthy, training to protect yourself often gets you injured, I'm on a 6 month hiatus from training to give my neck a chance to recover. It might even be a 9-12 month one. I've also been thinking about places that train heavy cardio or until you're fully drained - it's kind of stupid. You don't want to be fully exhausted while you're walking home from training, or for that matter you don't want to be limping for a couple days after because of training. If self defense is your interest you don't want to be training to the extent that you actually can't protect yourself.

Also with injuries, regardless of the reason for it, if you're on crutches you're pretty much fucked, so your best interest is to figure out a way of protecting yourself as if you couldn't fight at all. Training to fight is just a backup plan for weird outlier situations.

Some stuff is also just unavoidable, for instance one of the most popular malls here had 2 bombing attempts in as many years. How do you protect yourself from that when you're planning on watching a movie?
11/20/09 10:19 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 2941
laqueus - For a while I was looking into body armour 'cause I was at some clubs where people had been shot. 

 You don't want to be fully exhausted while you're walking home from training, or for that matter you don't want to be limping for a couple days after because of training. 

Training to fight is just a backup plan for weird outlier situations.

Body armor (going back to the 'fantasy SD', is a great idea. For a while, back in the day I carried a pair of Kevlar gloves like the kind they use to cut meat. It's a pretty good adjunct to packing a blade, and they're no bulkier than regular gloves. You can also get a kevlar umbrella, a kevlar trenchcoat and an armored briefcase (it's not too heavy and will stop small arms fire).

As far as being fully exhausted, I don't think that's a huge problem, depending on the degree, but it bears consideration.

And your final comment is a gem. That's it exactly. Just as going H2H on the battlefield, it should be a final option.


11/20/09 9:15 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 1668
I had a pair of kevlar gloves for a while. There was a problem though - they wouldn't keep my hands warm. :(

Kevlar umbrella I like. I once had a problem with an aggressive dog where I lived, it would jump at me with such force that the chain would jerk it around 180 degrees. I was using my regular umbrella as a shield, and I had my parents have a map of the route I had to walk and would talk to them on the phone until I got home, so if I dropped the phone or said anything alarming they'd call 911 for me. I figured I'd be too busy to call if I were being mauled. I like the idea that I can just open it up and create a barrier.

I'm just thinking about the exhaustion because I've been so fucked up from training that I couldn't walk properly. It's not so much cardio as it is dehydration or muscle fatigue. On that note I also had a really unwieldy duffle bag that I'd carry to and from training. I'd actually be really off balance if somebody jumped me. I cycle to training now though, so my main concern is bad drivers, so I focus on wearing as much yellow as I can.
11/21/09 6:30 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BigSifu
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/29/09
Posts: 68
Proper awareness and pro-active behavior can help avoid many situations. I try not to "advertise" that I may be anything other than another working class schmuck. My kids think I'm nuts because I won't open the door unless I know for sure who's knocking. My wife and (step)kids come from a rural area where they wouldn't even lock the front door at night!

When I see someone totally absorbed in their MP3 or cell phone on the street I can't help but think what easy pickings for robbery or assault they'd be. Thinking like a predator will let you know when you are "prey".
11/21/09 10:43 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 2949
BigSifu - Proper awareness and pro-active behavior can help avoid many situations. ...

My kids think I'm nuts because I won't open the door unless I know for sure who's knocking. My wife and (step)kids come from a rural area where they wouldn't even lock the front door at night!
Tell me about it!! I'm always trying to get mine to close and lock the front door as soon as they get in the house, but I frequently find it hanging open and here I was in the shower and they're in the basement or something. Anyone could walk in the house, not to mention a perp.

Also, trying to get them to lock the drivers' side door when they're in the car is all but impossible. Don't be a victim, I say. Good post.

 
11/27/09 2:50 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 1836
There's something to be said for moving to an area where you don't need to keep anything locked. My parents live in a small city and never have to keep the doors locked. Biggest concern is having neighbour's cats come in if the door is actually open. If you don't have a choice and live in a higher risk area then it makes sense, but living somewhere that it isn't necessary is your first option. You can always choose to keep things locked on top of it for the remaining 0.001% of situations.
11/27/09 10:42 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3026
True. But predators have been finding such locations. Just last week some guy who lives alone out in the country near here, and is wheelchair ridden was invaded, his house ransacked and he had to go to the hospital. Neighbors say they've never had any incidents like this in all the many years they've been living there. Best option is a noisy dog and a firearm.

11/27/09 12:24 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
shoe
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 895
most victims that i have spoken to, or read about, "had a feeling" and ignored it. Trusting your instincts is key...i have zero embarassment about crossing a street, or picking a different seat on transit, to avoid people who give me a bad vibe. If you are genuinely interested in self-defense, not in ego-fighting, and you end up in a fight, you've messed up, before the first word, let alone, fist, flew. JMHO.
11/27/09 1:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3034
shoe - most victims that i have spoken to, or read about, "had a feeling" and ignored it. Trusting your instincts is key...i have zero embarassment about crossing a street, or picking a different seat on transit, to avoid people who give me a bad vibe. If you are genuinely interested in self-defense, not in ego-fighting, and you end up in a fight, you've messed up, before the first word, let alone, fist, flew. JMHO.
Exactly. If you actually have to engage, you've missed several opportunities. I've had a few fights, and I can tell you there's never any good feeling, or feeling of 'conquering hero' or anything. I've always felt bad for any person I've had to hurt (though I've never hurt anyone that badly), and in the end wished it had not happened.
 
12/2/09 5:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
twinkletoesCT
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/26/02
Posts: 8507
Modern Self-Defense Center, Head Instructor
What about this thread of the conversation?

Opinion: Not all options are right for all people.

This is something that comes up often when training people. Some people could never bring themselves to eyepoke or bite, or to use a blade, or a firearm. Some people can't include running away in their "action plan". Because of our personalities, body types, and other factors, we choose the actions that satisfy us individually.

I can use myself as an example. I am comfortable with the physical skills I train. I train with the mindset that I am OK applying the skills I practice (eyepoke, bite, groin kick, etc) if a violent situation occurred.

On the other hand, I do not carry weapons. I received a folding knife as a gift once, and carried it once or twice. I found I was uncomfortable and didn't like the idea.

I also don't have a big dog, an elaborate home security system, or a moat. They weren't appropriate options for me.

So I did what I tell my clients to do: I sat down and took an honest look (as best one can for oneself) at my situation. What things are likely? What things are less likely? What things are particularly unlikely? I base my own decisions (which options are right for me) on this self-appraisal.

I think that given my career, neighborhood, friends, and frequent locations that my biggest risk factors are falls, home accidents, car accidents, and a high rate of diabetes in my family. I think physical violence is pretty far down the list in my own situation, especially because I tend to avoid it (by being aware of its precursors and sticking to my plan of avoidance) at all costs.

Is this right for me? Overall, I think so. I don't think I've painted myself into any corners with my "big picture" for my own safety and security plans. I think I have a system of options in place that don't include options that are difficult for me to implement.
12/3/09 3:23 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 12/03/09 3:30 AM
Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3120
Here's one way to think about it, CT.

When you don't know how to swim, you don't really think about 'what am I gonna do if I find myself out in the middle of a lake?'. When you first start learning to swim, you think about that a lot, realizing you could only swim a few yards in a pool right then.

Later, when you become an accomplished swimmer, you go back to the original situation - you don't worry about it, though in reality, you could be dropped in the middle of the ocean and your swimming wouldn't save you.

Likewise, when you only have 'speculative' skills (as in TMA), you will worry - you'll size big guys up when they walk by, you'll have arguments about 'street fighters'. But after getting real skill in an 'alive' art you don't have these doubts, your skills aren't speculative. A few months training escrima and a couple semesters of bjj and I don't think many people still worry about 'street self-defense'. Even so, extending the swimming analogy, you're not safe against everything. Ambush, much bigger opponent, weapons - all will beat even the best fighters. Unless you start working in an Emergency Room (re-sensitizing to the level of violence), most people would stop thinking about it. Over-concern about self-protection using physical means is rarely warranted living in a nice city in the US.

Just carry an combat strength LED flashlight, a cell phone with cops on speed-dial, and forget about it (add a cane or an innocuous-looking walking stick if that's no enough). No 'carrying a weapon' worries, not need to actually engage the perp in at least half the cases. No getting blood on you, getting sued by the perp for grievous injury.

As to SD training as a 'hobby' or as 'speculation', sure - use and train what you fell comfortable using. I don't think I'd want to blind someone unless it was life-or-death. Having some SD/MA skill certainly might mean you could use 'non-lethal' methods.

$0.02
  
12/3/09 3:35 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 12/03/09 3:40 AM
Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3121
Another way to think about SD...

If you're being attacked by a dog (who is usually just defending his territory), you can usually just hurt the dog, or kick it, or squirt it with water. Most people conside this a 'nuisance attack' unless the dog is very large (then he becomes a 'wolf' in essence).

BUT, if you're being attacked by a wolf, and you engage you're definitely going to try and kill. There's no way such a thing would be a 'nuisance'. It's clearly life threatening by definition. Wolves attack to kill you. Dogs just want to bite or threaten. (BTW, no one says 'oh why did he kill the poor wolf'. They say 'omg, he killed the wolf with a SAK!'. But, in contrast (to keep the analogy) use a knife on a dog attack and you get in trouble.)

Likewise in SD. The majority of things you'll ever encounter (given you don't go to biker's bars, etc.) are going to be 'nuisance' situations. For this reason, that's why the best option is to leave, de-escalate and not fight. If you're really fighting to survive you'll do anything necessary - the instinctive 'will to live'.

$0.02
   
12/11/09 12:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
New2MMA
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/13/03
Posts: 2971
WidespreadPanic - Another way to think about SD...

If you're being attacked by a dog (who is usually just defending his territory), you can usually just hurt the dog, or kick it, or squirt it with water. Most people conside this a 'nuisance attack' unless the dog is very large (then he becomes a 'wolf' in essence).

BUT, if you're being attacked by a wolf, and you engage you're definitely going to try and kill. There's no way such a thing would be a 'nuisance'. It's clearly life threatening by definition. Wolves attack to kill you. Dogs just want to bite or threaten. (BTW, no one says 'oh why did he kill the poor wolf'. They say 'omg, he killed the wolf with a SAK!'. But, in contrast (to keep the analogy) use a knife on a dog attack and you get in trouble.)

Likewise in SD. The majority of things you'll ever encounter (given you don't go to biker's bars, etc.) are going to be 'nuisance' situations. For this reason, that's why the best option is to leave, de-escalate and not fight. If you're really fighting to survive you'll do anything necessary - the instinctive 'will to live'.

$0.02
   



Very nicely said
12/22/09 6:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Sir Drinks a lot
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/08
Posts: 133
I got into training, and still train, for the purpose of being able to defend myself and my loved ones. So I am a proponent of self defense/protection.

However, sometimes it seems that self defense/protection veers off into left field and can (if people aren't careful) become a sort of LARPING scenrio. Or a means for people to indulge a sort of fantasy life. Perhaps without even realising it.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.