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Weapons UnderGround >> Evolving FMA


11/19/09 1:12 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 11/19/09 1:17 PM
Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 2933
 
 I've posted some comments about FMA and how some of the training is less than optimal. Here's some random thoughs on what we could be doing to further our skills and the art.

1. Invite guest instructors. Kendo, Spanish school, Fencing (saber, particularly), Medieval weapons (broadsword, etc.), WMA (Western Martial Arts) are good examples. This way you are not always fighting guys in your same system. It's too easy to think you're going unrehearsed, but in reality it's really speedy pattern drilling.

2. Always emphasize power over flippy-dippy twirling, florettes and fancy moves.

3. Instead of being so self-assured on your moves, always try to analyze them as you would BJJ and grappling. Look to see if you're allowing too much space, if you're not getting positional dominance, see how you can improve posture, learn to anticipate your opponent's moves. You're already good at the flow, so try to go outside that.

4. Work on weapons grappling. All too often, just when we get to the point of finishing the opponent, we stop and just 'indicate' the moves'. Learn weapons deployment, deployment prevention, two hands on one knife grappling. Don't be so worried about how you get into grappling range - it happens. So start there and 'go'.

5. Study a different art. Learn the basics of Kendo, study some WMA, join a fencing club. It will broaden your experience.

6. Understand that a weapon is a force multiplier, a speed multiplier and a range extender. If you're still doing big, broad movments, you're not taking best advantage of your weapons' characteristics.

7. Investigate better footwork. Lunge and riposte, KK footwork and moving like a tennis player has some possibilities.

HTH. $0.02

   
11/21/09 4:49 AM
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phauna
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1. Yes an open mat for any weapon style would be good. Unmatched weapons FTW.

2. My guy always tries to emphasise these curving tipped strikes, it's so hard to hit that way and seems low percentage. I would rather just strike hard in simple fashion.

3. Because of the speed I think video taping is necessary for analysis.

7. Lunging forward and backward does have so many uses, many more than the triangle stepping it would seem. It seems strange that it's not really trained in FMA.
11/25/09 7:55 AM
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New2MMA
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Great stuff Widespread Panic, I like your open-mindedness and tendency to pressure-test the material.
12/8/09 9:01 PM
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MobutuHari
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I responded earlier to your post WP. It is good ideas and I like them too - we had some of these concerns back in the 90s. Previously in Hawaii there was a group of us who tried this, we WANTED kendo, fencing, and kung fu guys to be in the weapons tournament. We wanted it to be open to all. Unfortunately, it never came to and many of the eskrima masters died and their students going into backyard training.

As for the flippity moves, I have no idea why eskrima has degraded itself this way. I grew up in plantation Hawaii. All the old manoys I've seen did not do this. It's often funny when some of the mainland guys would come down and do things like hubud, and were avid with such fancy abanikos twirly stuff - some we saw had merit . . but most times we were absolutely puzzled and didn't understand why training centered around stuff we considered mere coordination exercises.

I don't like to offend people about it . . but really that's how we were taught. Hubud, de cadena, twirly arkos - all were coordination drills. Really wasn't taught to us as actual fighting things. It was like jumping rope or hitting speed bag.
12/15/09 1:05 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 12/15/09 1:07 PM
Member Since: 12/29/06
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MobutuHari - I responded earlier to your post WP. It is good ideas and I like them too - we had some of these concerns back in the 90s. Previously in Hawaii there was a group of us who tried this, we WANTED kendo, fencing, and kung fu guys to be in the weapons tournament. We wanted it to be open to all. Unfortunately, it never came to and many of the eskrima masters died and their students going into backyard training.

As for the flippity moves, I have no idea why eskrima has degraded itself this way. I grew up in plantation Hawaii. All the old manoys I've seen did not do this. It's often funny when some of the mainland guys would come down and do things like hubud, and were avid with such fancy abanikos twirly stuff - some we saw had merit . . but most times we were absolutely puzzled and didn't understand why training centered around stuff we considered mere coordination exercises.

I don't like to offend people about it . . but really that's how we were taught. Hubud, de cadena, twirly arkos - all were coordination drills. Really wasn't taught to us as actual fighting things. It was like jumping rope or hitting speed bag.
Agree. I think all the flippy  stuff was added to keep up interest. They're good to practice, and the energy drills are fun, but they should be viewed in the right context.

The key elements are power, aggression, transitions to ground fighting, and cardio and burst (part of aggression). So many people  want to just let their conditioning fade and delude themselves into thinking the flippy-dippy stuff (like sinawali or knife tapping) will win any confrontation for them. It all goes out the window when you face a big tough guy with a heavy stick. If you have no 'alive' skills like the Dog Brothers have shown, you're now on level ground with a basically untrained guy. You're just backing up and trying to survive and hope his shots don't get through - heaven help you if you try some kind of weak block or you gas out. If the aggressive guy knows ground fighting and you're a traditional FMA guy, you're toast. He'll close and roof block and you'll be choked out.

Thanks for the input.
  
12/17/09 5:38 AM
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phauna
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The problem my teacher has is that he just doesn't have enough gear, and no one wants to buy it. So I bought two of everything, and now the other students still don't want to spar, because I'm encouraging it, not the teacher. I couldn't possibly know what I need to do to get better.


Actually, that's two problems. I'm from a BJJ / MMA background so I can't see the point of doing any of that stuff without sparring afterwards. The others are TMAish. Yes, it's a pejorative term.
12/17/09 1:39 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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phauna - The problem my teacher has is that he just doesn't have enough gear, and no one wants to buy it. So I bought two of everything, and now the other students still don't want to spar, because I'm encouraging it, not the teacher. I couldn't possibly know what I need to do to get better. 

 Challenge the teacher to spar? Got a ring or a cage to do it in?
12/17/09 8:48 PM
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GAMMAMtl
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You don't need much equipment to spar. A couple of headgears (decomissioned ones from a fencing school will do) and some light street hockey gloves. Perhaps elbow and knee pads until the fear diminishes.

You don't need to go balls to the wall every time you spar. It is un-necessary. Hard to avoid at the beginning, but un-necessary. Professional fighters (of all types) use a mixed bag of sparring, bag work, pad work, and drills to develop and and maintain their skills.

Even the dog brothers started this way. It should be no big deal.
12/20/09 6:26 PM
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Steven Lefebvre
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Hello Everyone,

Having sparred and trained in many weapon systems from Chinese,Japanese systems, to Medieval weapons to the FMA, the best method of training always includes a force on force hard core session of sparring.

There are many ancillary components to the training matrix that should be discussed here( along with hard core sparring) Drills such as isolated, environmental changes, pain induced, fatigue induced, odd hand sparring and attribute development sparring methods are another lynchpin in your development.

Don't overlook anything in your development. This is not an easy thing to say but after training, coaching, fighting and teaching for over 30 years, I can say that most students and people I have met and fought with under estimated their training by a long shot.

More to come...

Guro Steve L.
12/24/09 12:05 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 12/24/09 12:06 PM
Member Since: 12/29/06
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One of the often overlooked components is knowing your limitations. Spar with a lot of different people, try out different arts related to what you're doing, see what genetic gifts you have (speed, durability, mobility, timing). A very large component of skill is due to genetics. What can take some people years to accomplish is often achieved by a gifted trainer in a matter of days.

Some old-time boxing trainers still have fast eyes and good timing (they use 'cues' off of your movement). They can still beat you to the punch, and make you miss. They don't really need raw speed.

Another is ability to conceptualize. If you've seen other arts, and know angles and footwork, things take less time to analyze on the fly. Just as watching a soccer game for the first time is confusing, after you know the rules, the use of the forwards and wing men and can pick out the teams better, it makes much more sense. You've conceptualized it. Your vision didn't get faster, but the things that may have hindered interpretation have been removed.

Some guys can take a hit and keep coming. Though a small knife can inflict a horrific wound, it won't stop a determined bad guy pumped up on adrenaline or drugs. There are a lot of intangibles wrt weapons use and training. Experience is a good teacher, but even then, things happen so quickly it's not easy to pick up useful information.

$0.02

 
1/1/10 8:00 AM
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OnDaMat
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very interesting!

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