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TMA UnderGround >> Help me create a new game?


11/22/09 2:16 PM
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Shaper108
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Already posted this in the Judo forum, but I was wondering about the opinions here.

BIG FRAT

I have been mulling over the current state of Judo as a Martial Art. I have concluded that I love the Art as a whole, but that I dislike the sport(for the most part) that Judo has become.

I have begun to lay out a rule set of a new idea for a competitive sport which creates an opportunity for the Judoka to expand his skill beyond the sport, and even to expand and evolve Judo as an art form within itself.

Most of this is not new, and I am not trying to break any ground, or wow and amaze anyone with this idea. I just seek to create, or help create a format where Judoka can expand and grow better or beyond what is currently available to us.

As you will see, much of these rules come from a hodge podge of other arts such as Combat Sambo, Pancrase, Judo, BJJ, Kudo/Kyokushin Karate, MMA, among others. Like I said, nothing really new, just a different organization to help create better Judoka in any setting.

This is obviously a work in progress and is far from being comprehensive, and that is the very reason I am presenting this here.

I hope to hear all of the feedback, both positive and negative. Please take a look at my objectives as see if you have anything to share. I am open to all reasonable thoughts and ideas.

Objectives:

Increase Judo technique efficiency outside of the sport and it’s current rule-set.

Integrate Judo techniques more effectively and realistically with other Martial Arts.

Improve combat readiness and self-defense attributes of Judo as a Martial Art.

Decrease reliance of Gi oriented techniques found currently within Judo.

Increase overall efficiency and effectiveness of Ne Waza within Judo.

Advantages:

Allows club players/ hobbyists to compete and test their Judo in an MMA style setting.

Allows younger Judoka safe, Judo influenced, transition into amateur MMA .

Allows Artists of other styles to test against, or integrate themselves w/ Judo technique.

Allows older martial artists a way to compete in an MMA style setting against their peers.

Allows current amateur fighters a way to increase and apply their Judo, outside of MMA.

COMBAT JUDO??? (best name I have so far, lol. Not real happy with it because I am not trying to take away from Combat Sambo as a sport in any way)

No professional fighters other than Superfights.(No headgear)

Clothing and equipment:

No-GI Top
GI pants or Shorts(knee sleeves/pads ok)
Face Saver Headgear
Long sleeve Rash guard
MMA 4oz gloves
No shoes, grappling socks allowed.

Basic Rules:

All typical MMA strikes and submissions allowed minus neck cranks.(*see Divisions)

All throws and TD’s allowed including all currently banned Judo throws (Ippon ends round w/advantage) (* also see divisions)

3 Knockdown rule per round; ( 3 KD counts as Ippon, ends round w/advantage)
Knockdowns are counted from strikes, clean foot sweeps, or sitting into or jumping guard; no KD awarded for slips or stumbles.

Grappling- NO points ; submission only + strikes; 1:00 minute stand up rule(or ref stand up for stalling after 2 warnings)to encourage speed in transition to sub or(T)KO

(2)5-minute rounds; 1-minute rest

If round advantage is split after two rounds, a 3rd 3-minute round is added; (T)KO, Ippon or Sub wins.

3 Point win, 1 point draw, 0 point lose. Draws move to opposing sides of Draw bracket. Any loss in any bracket equals elimination.

Top two points leaders in Draw bracket compete for move to bottom of current Winners bracket .

3 Brackets:
Original bracket
Win bracket
Draw bracket

Beginner, Intermediate, and Expert divisions (split by age and weight)

Beginner :
No strikes to head (no headgear needed or allowed)
No knees or elbow strikes allowed.
No ankle locks.

Intermediate:
No knees or elbows to head.
No strikes to head on ground.
No heel hooks.


Expert Divisions:
All strikes and submissions allowed minus neck cranks.

Children under 18 limited to current allowed international Judo throws (lower body TD’s allowed) No spine locks or ankle locks in any youth division.


That's it in a nut shell. Thanks for reading.
11/22/09 3:52 PM
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KimuraKing
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I would look into Amatuer Pankration. Judo isn't Judo without the Gi. A big part of it is leaning grips.
11/22/09 4:51 PM
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Shaper108
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Edited: 11/22/09 4:54 PM
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I do not want to take away from the GI in Judo. That is what sport Judo is in place for. I want to compliment it.

I feel like what I am presenting still has the heart of Judo with the emphasis on finishing with an Ippon, as well as allowing Judo to be employed in a more diverse fighting forum.

In a perfect world the Judoka could compete in both types of competition.I am also looking to get away from point scoring. No matter how you twist it, there always seems to be a way to exploit point based competitions.

The only way to win here is two perfect throws(in keeping the essence of Judo) Submission, or (T)KO
11/24/09 2:24 PM
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laqueus
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I had a detailed response and it got lost by the forum. Short version: I don't see anything that you suggested that distinguishes it enough from existing sports to justify the time investment or to create enough of a benefit to create a new sport.
11/24/09 5:26 PM
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Shaper108
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No judges or points. (Found nowhere else.)

Win by 2 round advantage by Ippon, (T)KO, Sub.(No where else has this combination)

No-Gi, NO throw restrictions, no nerfed Ne Waza looking toward a more reality based)Judo focus. (Found nowhere else.)

No technique limitation in the Grappling. (Limited in all current combat sports besides MMA)

Specific safety equipment, age, and experience divisions allow all skill levels and age groups to compete in an MMA-style setting. (Again what other sport can perform this task as effectively?)

I could go on and on. You should check out the similar post in the UG forum. It has much more info, and I have answered many more questions there to help you determine the differences and advantages.

Take care.
11/24/09 6:00 PM
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laqueus
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Ippon is still points, as is the 2 round advantage system. Not quite conventional but it's still points.

The multi round system isn't exactly conducive to safety.

No throw restrictions also goes against the stated goal of safety.

You yourself listed technique limitations to neck cranks and spine locks, as well as heel hooks and ankle locks for intermediate and beginner divisions. Morganti Ju Jitsu has no limitation on any of those.

The safety equipment is counter-productive to safety. Headgear increases chances of brain damage while decreasing chances of cuts. That's not the way you want to go. Gloves do exactly the same. Wrong type of safety. If you want to reduce risk of brain damage, there's some new technology in place that might work for suitable headgear, but that'd need to be extensively tested. Age related stuff I think should be much more restricted. Under 13 should have no subs, so that's basically covered by wrestling. 14 and up I think are covered fine by amateur pankration, Judo, wrestling and BJJ. In fact nothing really that you describe is different from amateur pankration either in safety gear or rules.
11/24/09 6:05 PM
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laqueus
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Personally I'd go a completely different direction.

Remove the gi, just have shorts which can be grabbed. No elbow or knee pads. Rugby type headgear. Grappling only, all throws and submissions allowed. On hardwood. Adults only. If you don't want to get slammed or thrown badly, don't resist the throw and just go down. No points, only way to lose is by submission or technical submission (injury), so you'd be primarily looking at not getting injured. If you've got enough muscle and good enough technique you'd be able to stay unhurt (there are a number of high level guys who can take throws on hardwood floor and be unhurt).

It's definitely not suitable for kids, and doesn't really make things safer, but in my experience the less rules there are the less people get hurt seriously, but it would definitely expand the scope of Judo (and grappling in general) as more martial than it currently is.
11/24/09 6:42 PM
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Shaper108
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Edited: 11/24/09 6:49 PM
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laqueus - Ippon is still points, as is the 2 round advantage system. Not quite conventional but it's still points.The multi round system isn't exactly conducive to safety.No throw restrictions also goes against the stated goal of safety.You yourself listed technique limitations to neck cranks and spine locks, as well as heel hooks and ankle locks for intermediate and beginner divisions. Morganti Ju Jitsu has no limitation on any of those.The safety equipment is counter-productive to safety. Headgear increases chances of brain damage while decreasing chances of cuts. That's not the way you want to go. Gloves do exactly the same. Wrong type of safety. If you want to reduce risk of brain damage, there's some new technology in place that might work for suitable headgear, but that'd need to be extensively tested. Age related stuff I think should be much more restricted. Under 13 should have no subs, so that's basically covered by wrestling. 14 and up I think are covered fine by amateur pankration, Judo, wrestling and BJJ. In fact nothing really that you describe is different from amateur pankration either in safety gear or rules.""Ippon is still points, as is the 2 round advantage system. Not quite conventional but it's still points""It is a number, granted, but it is not cumulative points. You either win a round or you don't. Win with a clean throw, (T)KO, or a Sub. Tell me how, unlike other point based systems in place, that you could point stall a match? Not to mention how it avoids controversial Judging that goes on at every level?""The multi round system isn't exactly conducive to safety.""What do you mean by this? How could getting a break in the middle of a fight not be safe? Let me see some medical proof for this as well.""You yourself listed technique limitations to neck cranks and spine locks, as well as heel hooks and ankle locks for intermediate and beginner divisions. Morganti Ju Jitsu has no limitation on any of those.""Um, every sport has stricter rules to lead up to the apex of said specific sport? And your point? Morganti Ju Jitsu...never heard of it until you wrote it. Do they even have active competitions in the USA? I just looked up their rules. They have "light" strikes for the most part, use a GI, and no forward throws? Yea, you can keep that competition all to your self.The only grappling restriction I have in place in the Advanced Division is no neck cranks. The risk is not worth the reward...first, how many combat sports other than MMA allow them? Second, how many neck crank finishes do you see in MMA? Very, very few. Now compare that to blood chokes? NO need to risk severe spine trauma in a sport when a choke can serve the same purpose 9/10 times.""The safety equipment is counter-productive to safety. Headgear increases chances of brain damage while decreasing chances of cuts."Show me medical proof that headgear increases the chance of brain damage. I guess by that logic we should tell football and hockey players to take off their headgear as well. ""Age related stuff I think should be much more restricted. Under 13 should have no subs, so that's basically covered by wrestling."" Plenty of GI and NO-Gi comps allow subs for children. For instance NAGA has no real age minimum...it is based on weight. You are speaking your opinion, not what is commonly accepted and practiced in combat sports.""14 and up I think are covered fine by amateur pankration, Judo, wrestling and BJJ. In fact nothing really that you describe is different from amateur pankration either in safety gear or rules."" Other than the emphasis on No-Gi judo throws, not to mention combining it with Koykushin style striking, No points or Judges, and so on and so forth....
11/24/09 6:50 PM
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Shaper108
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Facking edit button...lol, for a more clear response check the UG thread.
11/24/09 7:06 PM
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laqueus
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"What do you mean by this? How could getting a break in the middle of a fight not be safe? Let me see some medical proof for this as well"

It's common sense. If you're injured, get a break and then go out again you're just worse off. If you've got to wait 20-30 minutes until your next match the adrenaline wears off and the injury will be caught.

"Um, every sport has stricter rules to lead up to the apex of said specific sport? And your point?"

My point is you said there's no grappling restriction while quite clearly there is.

"
Morganti Ju Jitsu...never heard of it until you wrote it.
"

Kinda beside the point, it already exists and has competitions.

"I just looked up their rules. They have "light" strikes for the most part, use a GI, and no forward throws? "

Nope, full contact strikes, just no face punches. All throws allowed. I've done 2 tournaments, I know what the rules are. Yeah, they use a gi, but then you have basically the same thing no gi with amateur pankration, plus some additional submission restrictions.

"The risk is not worth the reward...first, how many combat sports other than MMA allow them? Second, how many neck crank finishes do you see in MMA? Very, very few."

Guillotines are more often neck cranks than chokes. It's not about the finishes, can openers set up guard passes by forcing the guard to open. And again, you said there are no restrictions when there are. Trying to justify them doesn't change the fact that you suggested restrictions while claiming there aren't any.

"Show me medical proof that headgear increases the chance of brain damage."

Headgear only prevents cuts, so you take more hits than you normally would. Also the friction increases torsion to the head which is a more serious risk for brain damage. Headgear is there for boxers in training to not get cuts so they don't have one that opens up easily in the fight. Just like gloves only are there to protect their hands from being broken. The gear isn't safety gear as much as it's training gear to maintain their ability to fight, rather than to ensure their health and safety.

"Plenty of GI and NO-Gi comps allow subs for children."

They shouldn't.


"Other than the emphasis on No-Gi judo throws, not to mention combining it with Koykushin style striking, No points or Judges, and so on and so forth.... "

What's the difference between Kyokushin striking compared to amateur pankration? Lack of judges sure, but that's a rather small distinction since the point is still to win decisively.
11/24/09 7:52 PM
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Shaper108
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laqueus - "What do you mean by this? How could getting a break in the middle of a fight not be safe? Let me see some medical proof for this as well"

It's common sense. If you're injured, get a break and then go out again you're just worse off. If you've got to wait 20-30 minutes until your next match the adrenaline wears off and the injury will be caught.

"Um, every sport has stricter rules to lead up to the apex of said specific sport? And your point?"

My point is you said there's no grappling restriction while quite clearly there is.

"
Morganti Ju Jitsu...never heard of it until you wrote it.
"

Kinda beside the point, it already exists and has competitions.

"I just looked up their rules. They have "light" strikes for the most part, use a GI, and no forward throws? "

Nope, full contact strikes, just no face punches. All throws allowed. I've done 2 tournaments, I know what the rules are. Yeah, they use a gi, but then you have basically the same thing no gi with amateur pankration, plus some additional submission restrictions.

"The risk is not worth the reward...first, how many combat sports other than MMA allow them? Second, how many neck crank finishes do you see in MMA? Very, very few."

Guillotines are more often neck cranks than chokes. It's not about the finishes, can openers set up guard passes by forcing the guard to open. And again, you said there are no restrictions when there are. Trying to justify them doesn't change the fact that you suggested restrictions while claiming there aren't any.

"Show me medical proof that headgear increases the chance of brain damage."

Headgear only prevents cuts, so you take more hits than you normally would. Also the friction increases torsion to the head which is a more serious risk for brain damage. Headgear is there for boxers in training to not get cuts so they don't have one that opens up easily in the fight. Just like gloves only are there to protect their hands from being broken. The gear isn't safety gear as much as it's training gear to maintain their ability to fight, rather than to ensure their health and safety.

"Plenty of GI and NO-Gi comps allow subs for children."

They shouldn't.


"Other than the emphasis on No-Gi judo throws, not to mention combining it with Koykushin style striking, No points or Judges, and so on and so forth.... "

What's the difference between Kyokushin striking compared to amateur pankration? Lack of judges sure, but that's a rather small distinction since the point is still to win decisively.


""It's common sense. If you're injured, get a break and then go out again you're just worse off. If you've got to wait 20-30 minutes until your next match the adrenaline wears off and the injury will be caught.""

No not common sense, it's your personal opinion. If a fighter fought for 13 minutes straight his adrenaline would be still pumping teh entire fight, with a minute rest between 3 possible rounds it allows the fighter to slow down a bit and access his well being...its not flawless but it is certainly better than letting a fighter go past the point of fatigue and them let him make a bigger mistake, and get really injured.

"My point is you said there's no grappling restriction while quite clearly there is."

As compared to other combat sports, and the apex of this game I truly feel that these rules are the least limiting they could be. The other "restrictions" due to division are a moot point, as they only serve as an available option for those who are not ready for the Advanced Division.


"Nope, full contact strikes, just no face punches. All throws allowed. I've done 2 tournaments, I know what the rules are. Yeah, they use a gi, but then you have basically the same thing no gi with amateur pankration, plus some additional submission restrictions."

Ok, so you forget to admit, yet again, that there currently no available tournaments in the USA? If so where?

Also, I find this funny...taken verbatim from their rules page..."Article 7
Strikes and divisions
7.1 All divisions must to attack on the torso and the head with light contact that will be used by the referees by the 3 criteria Victory, or penalty."

Still, you act like no points,the GI, and no forward throws are not huge differences in competition? Get real.

"Guillotines are more often neck cranks than chokes. It's not about the finishes, can openers set up guard passes by forcing the guard to open. And again, you said there are no restrictions when there are. Trying to justify them doesn't change the fact that you suggested restrictions while claiming there aren't any."

Dude, I never claimed that there werent ANY restrictions. Can you read English well? I said it has the least amount as compared to most other combat sports.

Guillotines can be turned into neck crank. A qualifed referee should know the difference. There are specific techniques that constitute a neck crank...as the rules become more defined, we can simply list and describe these techniques. You are grasping at straws my friend.

"Headgear only prevents cuts, so you take more hits than you normally would. Also the friction increases torsion to the head which is a more serious risk for brain damage. Headgear is there for boxers in training to not get cuts so they don't have one that opens up easily in the fight."

Again you are only going off of your own personal reasoning...show me the medical proof. That same reasoning could be used against football and hockey helmets...its ludicrous. Anything that cushions a blow to the head helps to prevent trauma. By your logic, no one should ever wear head gear in any sport or activity that has a risk of head injury.

""Plenty of GI and NO-Gi comps allow subs for children."

"They shouldn't.""

Again, your opinion, not the consensus.


""What's the difference between Kyokushin striking compared to amateur pankration? Lack of judges sure, but that's a rather small distinction since the point is still to win decisively.""

Dude, over and over, you are digging a deeper hole. I can find many similarities found in ALL combat sports and recite them to you. It doesnt mean anything other than they are ALL COMBAT SPORTS! lol

The issue here is what makes them different, and what their ultimate goal is...so far you have failed miserably at proving your original point that there arent enough differences to warrant a new sport.

Yet, you constantly accept the readily apparent, and very important differences, but still act like they don't mean anything?

I will post them again just to drive my point home for you.

No judges or points. (Found nowhere else.)

Win by 2 round advantage by Ippon, (T)KO, Sub.(No where else has this combination)

No-Gi, NO throw restrictions, no nerfed Ne Waza looking toward a more reality based)Judo focus. (Found nowhere else.)

No technique limitation in the Grappling. (Limited in all current combat sports besides MMA)

Specific safety equipment, age, and experience divisions allow all skill levels and age groups to compete in an MMA-style setting. (Again what other sport can perform this task as effectively?)

I am done with you. Have a great day!
11/24/09 8:32 PM
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Shaper108
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Edited: 11/24/09 8:34 PM
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Hmmm...Muay Tai and TKD both have kicks in their curriculum...they must be EXACTLY the same.

How could I have not seen this before?

I am normally a pretty laid back guy, and I know I have been a little harsh, but damn dude you have to be trolling me with the points you have made.
11/24/09 8:50 PM
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Shaper108
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""No technique limitation in the Grappling. (Limited in all current combat sports besides MMA)"

I read this again and I did notice that is was a bit unclear(even though the rules clarify) and where this misunderstanding came from.

Grappling in other arts have specific limitations, but they affect the overall strategy or restrict certain artforms.

I am seeking to take away as many limitations as possible, without unnecessary risk vs reward as previously described regarding chokes vs neck cranks.

That is why I neck cranks are the only illegal submission in the Advanced Division. This gets it as close to MMA as possible without really affecting the game on a strategic level.

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

Shaper
11/25/09 12:33 AM
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laqueus
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Shaper108 - ""No technique limitation in the Grappling. (Limited in all current combat sports besides MMA)"

I read this again and I did notice that is was a bit unclear(even though the rules clarify) and where this misunderstanding came from.

Grappling in other arts have specific limitations, but they affect the overall strategy or restrict certain artforms.

I am seeking to take away as many limitations as possible, without unnecessary risk vs reward as previously described regarding chokes vs neck cranks.


Again, you're not doing anything that Freestyle and Combat Sambo don't, nor are you doing anything that Amateur Pankration and Morganti Ju Jitsu don't.


That is why I neck cranks are the only illegal submission in the Advanced Division. This gets it as close to MMA as possible without really affecting the game on a strategic level.


I don't see the point in banning neck cranks but not spine locks. Not disallowing finger locks is also questionable, but I'd assume that's just an oversight on your part.
11/25/09 12:34 AM
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laqueus
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Shaper108 -

No not common sense, it's your personal opinion. If a fighter fought for 13 minutes straight his adrenaline would be still pumping teh entire fight, with a minute rest between 3 possible rounds it allows the fighter to slow down a bit and access his well being...its not flawless but it is certainly better than letting a fighter go past the point of fatigue and them let him make a bigger mistake, and get really injured.


Most amateur tournaments stick with 3-5 minute single rounds. It'd be best to stick with that. It's not 3x5 or one 15 minute round, it's 3x5 or 1x5, and 1x5 is clearly safer than 3x5.


As compared to other combat sports, and the apex of this game I truly feel that these rules are the least limiting they could be.


They could very well be less limiting. Particularly compared to Freestyle Sambo, CACC, Morganti Ju Jitsu.


The other "restrictions" due to division are a moot point, as they only serve as an available option for those who are not ready for the Advanced Division.


Which then creates the problem of having split training which creates safety risks. It's already been brought up as a problem for amateur MMA, you'd have the same issue here.


Ok, so you forget to admit, yet again, that there currently no available tournaments in the USA? If so where?


Not sure where, but there are no available tournaments of what you propose either, so it's rather a moot point, and there are Amateur Pankration tournaments of which there's only a difference in rounds and scoring, which is the least important bit.

7.1 All divisions must to attack on the torso and the head with light contact that will be used by the referees by the 3 criteria Victory, or penalty."


Not how it's done at all. You can win by KO.


Still, you act like no points,the GI, and no forward throws are not huge differences in competition? Get real.


The gi is a small difference, you get pretty much the same thing without gi in amateur pankration, as I already said, and the no forward throws is also bs, again as I already said. You're not really bothering to read what I'm writing.


Dude, I never claimed that there werent ANY restrictions. Can you read English well? I said it has the least amount as compared to most other combat sports.


From post 5:

Shaper108- No technique limitation in the Grappling. (Limited in all current combat sports besides MMA)


If anything you have the English issues if you can't figure out that a restriction and limitation are the same thing.


Guillotines can be turned into neck crank. A qualifed referee should know the difference.


Nope, in Judo they flat out ban them. In BJJ they categorically allow them.


There are specific techniques that constitute a neck crank...as the rules become more defined, we can simply list and describe these techniques. You are grasping at straws my friend.


Not grasping at straws at all, you made a claim that neck cranks aren't used very often, I pointed out 2 very common uses of neck cranks.

Again you are only going off of your own personal reasoning...show me the medical proof.


Show the medical proof that headgear protects against brain damage. You'll find none.


That same reasoning could be used against football and hockey helmets...its ludicrous.


There's a thread in the UG right now specifically about football helmets leading to increased brain damage and dementia.


Anything that cushions a blow to the head helps to prevent trauma.


Nope, you're not looking at all the ways that brain damage is caused.


By your logic, no one should ever wear head gear in any sport or activity that has a risk of head injury.


Not at all, I'm specifically talking about the problems with boxing headgear and the like, not about motorcycle, bicycle or skating helmets, which are quite different.


Again, your opinion, not the consensus.


It is by the IJF, which has some pretty extensive research on the subject.


Dude, over and over, you are digging a deeper hole. I can find many similarities found in ALL combat sports and recite them to you. It doesnt mean anything other than they are ALL COMBAT SPORTS! lol


I'm not digging myself a hole at all, you're trying to create a new sport that has very little to differentiate it from multiple existing sports and doesn't accomplish anything that existing sports don't already accomplish. What you're proposing is completely useless. You need more than different scoring to make a new sport.


The issue here is what makes them different, and what their ultimate goal is...so far you have failed miserably at proving your original point that there arent enough differences to warrant a new sport.


Each one of your stated goals is accomplished by either Combat Sambo, Freestyle Sambo, Sport Sambo, FILA Grappling, Amateur Pankration, Morganti Ju Jitsu, Enshin Karate or Daidu Juku Karate.


Yet, you constantly accept the readily apparent, and very important differences, but still act like they don't mean anything?


The only difference is the scoring system you propose, which isn't enough to warrant a whole new sport.


I will post them again just to drive my point home for you.

No judges or points. (Found nowhere else.)


You still have points, they're just handled a bit differently. No judges or points is found elsewhere as well. You even have no time limits if you like.


Win by 2 round advantage by Ippon, (T)KO, Sub.(No where else has this combination)


Largely pointless, nobody's going to do it just because of this specific combination.


No-Gi, NO throw restrictions, no nerfed Ne Waza looking toward a more reality based)Judo focus. (Found nowhere else.)


Definitely found elsewhere, in multiple variations, you just clearly don't know enough about the variety of sports that are already out there.
11/25/09 2:38 PM
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Shaper108
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""Most amateur tournaments stick with 3-5 minute single rounds. It'd be best to stick with that.""

Lol, now you are changing your mind, and rounds are NOW ok...but only at your suggestion of 3-5 minute rounds! You crack me up. You get owned, and proceed to tell me hoe to do exactly what you said was unacceptable one post before. lmfao


""Again, you're not doing anything that Freestyle and Combat Sambo don't, nor are you doing anything that Amateur Pankration and Morganti Ju Jitsu don't.""

Combat Sambo- limited availabilty for school and tourneys in the USA and they use a gi. They also use points to score rounds. Combat Sambo is probably the closest thing to what I presenting. That we agree on.

Morganti Ju Jitsu- AGAIN, not available in the US (as you keep omiting). Point sparring rules mixed with BJJ. You keep saying other wise, but the rules are clear as day. Also use a GI.

Pankration-Limited schools and tourneys, also points per round based, more so than many other combat sports.


""I don't see the point in banning neck cranks but not spine locks. Not disallowing finger locks is also questionable, but I'd assume that's just an oversight on your part.""

Did you not read my intro? I told you that I didn't list every single rule. I put this down here to show the basic structure. And nitpicking because you have no real arguments, lol. Spine locks are fine. I am not going to waste my time convincing you why.

"Which then creates the problem of having split training which creates safety risks. It's already been brought up as a problem for amateur MMA, you'd have the same issue here."

Why the fuck would you have split training? You train every technique as safe as you can based on your skill level, and once you are ready to compete, you and/or your coach determine which division to enter. Again, you make something out of nothing.


""Not sure where, but there are no available tournaments of what you propose either, so it's rather a moot point, and there are Amateur Pankration tournaments of which there's only a difference in rounds and scoring, which is the least important bit.""

Thats right..you arent sure...but you are in the know about every other aspect of that sport? NO tournaments of this IDEA? Umm, maybe because it is a new IDEA, that happens to be founded by a guy in AMERICA who would intends on holding the tournaments, in AMERICA. SO, no the point is not moot. Not to mention you act like I didn't not just present this here a few days ago. Judoka are all over every state in America. So, I would say the audience is there, smart guy.

NOt to mention the fact that you keep saying "there is only THIS difference, and there is only THAT difference, and then there is THIS other differnce" to every combat sport on earth. All you are saying is what I am presenting is different in many ways. It might serve you well to stop shooting yourself in the foot.

""The gi is a small difference, you get pretty much the same thing without gi in amateur pankration, as I already said, and the no forward throws is also bs, again as I already said. You're not really bothering to read what I'm writing.""

This guy just said the GI is a SMALL difference! And about the throws...dude it is on their rules page...which you also refuse to believe about the strikes. I am done arguing with you about that sport...it is illrelivant to Americans right now. Oh, and I am readign what you are saying, you just arent stating facts my friend

"Show the medical proof that headgear protects against brain damage. You'll find none."

So then I will digress, since neither of us can prove anything about brain damage and head gear, and I will just use the cut and broken nose argument instead...to which you have agreed with before hand...which means...head gear is just fine.

""It is by the IJF, which has some pretty extensive research on the subject""

""The point is that many other organizations use them, and I happen agree with those many organizations...if you don't...thats ok too. No one is forcing you to play in my sandbox.""



""I'm not digging myself a hole at all, you're trying to create a new sport that has very little to differentiate it from multiple existing sports""

Your limited, and closed mined opinion.

""and doesn't accomplish anything that existing sports don't already accomplish. What you're proposing is completely useless.""

Once again, more of your holier-than-thou, egocentric, personal opinions...if you know better, then do better or shut the hell up. I have proved time and time again to you that I have presented much more than scoring, but if you refuse to see it, then I am I bothering to repeat myself?

""Definitely found elsewhere, in multiple variations, you just clearly don't know enough about the variety of sports that are already out there.""

I find this funny, because I clearly stated in the beginning of my original post that what I am presenting is a hodge-podge of every single art you have tried to use in your arguments. lol.

Then I went on to say that the important aspect was how they were packaged together, and used, in this new format to achieve specific goals for Judoka, and anyone else who competed? Don't act like you missed that part, big guy. Yet again, you have nothing.

Dude...Once I prove you wrong on each point, you go on to another random point as to try and continue grasping at nothing. If you don't like the idea...don't fucking compete in it.

You are simply becoming laughable now. Any rational human can see your avoidance of the facts, your random straw-man arguments at every turn, and the fact that 90% of your answers are your biased personal opinions and bias.

You could of saved us both a lot of by by just saying "I dont like the idea, personally" and be done.

Take care, guy. I rest my case.
11/25/09 7:59 PM
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laqueus
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Shaper108 - ""Most amateur tournaments stick with 3-5 minute single rounds. It'd be best to stick with that.""

Lol, now you are changing your mind, and rounds are NOW ok...but only at your suggestion of 3-5 minute rounds! You crack me up. You get owned, and proceed to tell me hoe to do exactly what you said was unacceptable one post before. lmfao


YOU are the one digging yourself a hole. You don't understand what a "single round" is? 3-5 minute single round is the same as single round of 3-5 minutes. Your only excuse at this point is that English is not your first language. Otherwise you're just stupid.


Combat Sambo- limited availabilty for school and tourneys in the USA and they use a gi. They also use points to score rounds. Combat Sambo is probably the closest thing to what I presenting. That we agree on.


It's more available than your presently non-existent sport. Unless you have connections with US Judo you're at best going to get a single tournament running that you set up, and you'll be able to brag about how quickly it was finished because hardly anyone will show up.


Morganti Ju Jitsu- AGAIN, not available in the US (as you keep omiting). Point sparring rules mixed with BJJ. You keep saying other wise, but the rules are clear as day. Also use a GI.


Yours isn't available in the US or anywhere in the world, and it is available in Canada very close to the US border. Anyone who can make a Seattle tournament can make one in Richmond. Despite what you say of the tournament, it's not point sparring rules. It's Kyokushin mixed with BJJ. I've competed in them, I know what the rules are. Whatever you're pulling off the web is incorrect.


Pankration-Limited schools and tourneys, also points per round based, more so than many other combat sports.


Check out www.fightleague.org - they're well distributed, schools aren't limited, since pretty much any place that does MMA does it, they're growing, and once again, not points based. They do have judges, but you're just completely uninformed and misinformed about what's already out there, which is why your idea will fail.


Did you not read my intro? I told you that I didn't list every single rule. I put this down here to show the basic structure. And nitpicking because you have no real arguments, lol. Spine locks are fine. I am not going to waste my time convincing you why.


First you try to justify it by saying you didn't put every rule and then you say spine locks are fine? Potentially making someone paraplegic is OK, but quadriplegic isn't? No way anyone associated with Judo will EVER agree to that. And I have plenty of real points, you're just ignoring them. When I point out you're incorrect, you just ignore it and repeat what was false.
11/25/09 8:25 PM
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laqueus
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Shaper108 - 
Why the fuck would you have split training? You train every technique as safe as you can based on your skill level, and once you are ready to compete, you and/or your coach determine which division to enter. Again, you make something out of nothing.


You have to completely change strategies with the inclusion of leg locks and with their exclusion. You also have to change them completely with the inclusion and exclusion of head strikes and once again completely change them with the inclusion and exclusion of strikes on the ground.


Thats right..you arent sure...but you are in the know about every other aspect of that sport?


You're stuck on them being in the US. I have personal experience with them outside of the US, so obviously I can't tell you where every tournament in the US is, that's outside of my scope. The rules of the tournaments are within my scope.


NO tournaments of this IDEA? Umm, maybe because it is a new IDEA, that happens to be founded by a guy in AMERICA who would intends on holding the tournaments, in AMERICA.


Nonetheless, there are more tournaments of existing sports than what you'll set up, and you'll get more interest running another tournament of an existing type rather than creating an entirely new one.


SO, no the point is not moot. Not to mention you act like I didn't not just present this here a few days ago. Judoka are all over every state in America. So, I would say the audience is there, smart guy.


Why don't you present your suggested rules to US Judo or one of the other couple organisations in the states and see what they have to say about it? Judo is an Olympic sport, there's going to be limited interest in training outside of that. You're also going to have a hard time getting insurance for a tournament that deviates that far from standard Judo rules, meaning the fees everyone pays to the Judo clubs including insurance for training and tournaments wouldn't cover them.


NOt to mention the fact that you keep saying "there is only THIS difference, and there is only THAT difference, and then there is THIS other differnce" to every combat sport on earth.


The only difference you have is winning by round advantage and doing multiple rounds. That's not enough to create a new sport when everyone can go to an Amateur Pankration tournament.


All you are saying is what I am presenting is different in many ways. It might serve you well to stop shooting yourself in the foot.


You're fabricating differences by posting things which are incorrect about sports that already exist. You're the one shooting yourself in the foot there.


This guy just said the GI is a SMALL difference! And about the throws...dude it is on their rules page...which you also refuse to believe about the strikes.


Because I've competed in their tournaments! I have far more experience with them than you have. I don't care what you found or post, it's INCORRECT. The rules are full contact kicks to the legs, body and head, full contact punches and knees to the legs and body, you can win by TKO or KO, there will be no DQ for excessive contact, all throws including slams are allowed, all submissions are allowed. Winning is by judges decision if you don't win by Submission, KO or TKO, but there are no points. I don't need to go by the website that has incorrect information when I have first hand experience competing multiple times.


I am done arguing with you about that sport...it is illrelivant to Americans right now. Oh, and I am readign what you are saying, you just arent stating facts my friend


I am stating facts, you're just trying to support your point by posting falsehoods in response.


So then I will digress, since neither of us can prove anything about brain damage and head gear, and I will just use the cut and broken nose argument instead...to which you have agreed with before hand...which means...head gear is just fine.


You don't want to prevent cuts or broken noses. If you have a cut or broken nose then the fight stops and trauma to the head stops. Just like you have no gloves so if they punch too much they break their hand. Again, less head trauma.


Your limited, and closed mined opinion.


My opinion is far from limited, I actually have experience with multiple sports that you don't, so if anything your opinion is more limited, and you're also far more closed minded by not looking at the sports that already exist to see if they meet your goals. Instead you find information that is incorrect and blindly hang on to it even when it's pointed out multiple times that it is incorrect.


Once again, more of your holier-than-thou, egocentric, personal opinions...if you know better, then do better or shut the hell up.


I do do better, I don't waste anyone's time creating a new sport when competing in a different one does the exact same thing.


I have proved time and time again to you that I have presented much more than scoring,


No, you haven't. You posted false information to justify that you presented differences in rules limitations, but that isn't true because, wait for it, once again YOU POSTED FALSE INFORMATION.


but if you refuse to see it, then I am I bothering to repeat myself?


Good question, why are you bothering to repeat yourself when you've been clearly refuted the first time?


I find this funny, because I clearly stated in the beginning of my original post that what I am presenting is a hodge-podge of every single art you have tried to use in your arguments. lol.


Clearly not, given that you didn't know about Morganti Ju Jitsu beforehand, so it's not "every single art". You also haven't researched them very well given whatever information you managed to drag up was incorrect.
11/25/09 8:25 PM
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Then I went on to say that the important aspect was how they were packaged together, and used, in this new format to achieve specific goals for Judoka, and anyone else who competed?


Amateur Pankration has exactly the same ruleset that you propose, minus the scoring and round differences.


Don't act like you missed that part, big guy. Yet again, you have nothing.


I didn't miss it. Multiple arts do that whole package, you're refusing to admit it.


Dude...Once I prove you wrong on each point, you go on to another random point as to try and continue grasping at nothing. If you don't like the idea...don't fucking compete in it.


I've been repeating the same point in response to yours each time, either you're unable to read one line after the other or your grasp of English is so tenuous that when I rephrase my point for your benefit you think it's an entirely new point.


You are simply becoming laughable now. Any rational human can see your avoidance of the facts, your random straw-man arguments at every turn, and the fact that 90% of your answers are your biased personal opinions and bias.


What bias? If you're going to claim bias you should be able to establish what my bias is.
11/25/09 8:52 PM
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Shaper108
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Buh bye, now. You take the cake my friend. Good luck in all your future endeavors.

Regards

Shaper
11/29/09 6:54 PM
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NomercyGear
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I love the idea, only qualm is with the name, combat judo = ju jitsu, combat kendo = kenjitsu, jitsu means combat or war variation.
12/6/09 11:31 AM
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Shaper108
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NomercyGear - I love the idea, only qualm is with the name, combat judo = ju jitsu, combat kendo = kenjitsu, jitsu means combat or war variation.


Yea, I really don't have a good name for it right now. I just made up a new one in the mean time. "Nyukojutsu" (New Big Skill) :P

Could you tell me what specifically that you love about it? It is still a work in progress.
12/7/09 11:20 AM
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Shaper108
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KyokushinCatch - I'd like to see sport Judo with leglocks, neckcranks, at least :60 seconds of newaza allowed, no stalling while turtled, and limits on guard-pulling.


It seems I have most of that covered for ya besides neck cranks. ;)

I just can't rationalize allowing neck cranks due to the risk factors for club level players when a good choke can be applied 99% of the time from the same positions. It still teaches you to defend your neck yet the possibility of injury decreases dramatically.

I suppose if there ever was a big enough following for a pro division, neck cranks would be fine. If pros risk it in MMA then they obviously wouldnt worry about it in this sport.

And thanks for your input!

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