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JKD UnderGround >> Shocknife Sparring- Battlefield Kali


11/30/09 9:15 PM
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Burton
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Making sure that safe training doesn't get to the point where people are not treating the training knife like a real knife. Also, adding the fear factor to safe sparring.
12/1/09 6:00 AM
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BigSifu
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That was a breath of fresh air! Where do I get shock knives from?
12/1/09 10:21 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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BigSifu - That was a breath of fresh air! Where do I get shock knives from?

 You need two, right? Got $1000 bucks you don't need?

12/2/09 6:05 AM
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BigSifu
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BigSifu - That was a breath of fresh air! Where do I get shock knives from?

 You need two, right? Got $1000 bucks you don't need?



Ack! There's my shock.

I'll just whip some up with 2 car batteries,steel rods,jumper cables and duct tape. Or I'll just keep using what I've got...
12/2/09 6:16 AM
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phauna
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Fantastic. Next level would be light sabers.
12/2/09 1:08 PM
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ReneH
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With all due respect, Burton, the problem with knife training is the approach.

People get set to "spar" with the knife as opposed to "fighting" with the knife.

"Sparring" with the knife, with protective hand gear, is the same as kickboxing with protective gear, both combatants exchange countless blows because the fear factor "getting cut" or getting "punched" has been removed. As was evident in the video clips.

"Fighting" with a metal training knife and using only facegear is another matter. The combatants forego protective gloves and instantly become aware of the pain of a strike if they got careless. The fear of the knife is thus put back in. In my opinion, using hand protective only increases the disrespect for the knife, because it removes the pain factor. We do both but coach to respect the knife at all times.

In addition, why do people train to slash and cut to the face or head? Doing so will only expose your cuting hand. People that attempt to cut the face and head only go further in disrespecting the severity of the knife fight when the knife hand should be the target. Just look at the video clip.

I disagree with the mentality that people seem to have in regards to knife training. Having seen too many people walk in through the ED's that I've worked in, the knife should never be taken lightly. Training someone to reach for the head and face with the knife will only invite throwing caution to the wind and possibly a quicker end to your own death. It is in this very instance that knife fighting has regressed to knife sparring.
12/2/09 4:49 PM
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membrane
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" It is in this very instance that knife fighting has regressed to knife sparring. "

As opposed to coming from behind a guy, putting a plastic bag over his head and pumping a screwdriver in his back?

I'm sure all of us know in our hearts that knife on knife duels is pretty much a fantasy. It's still a lot of fun and I for one would really like to try these shock knives.
12/2/09 6:17 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Since knife dueling is more-or-less a fantasy, there are many, many ways to look at it. Since there's really, currently, no way to develop a standard, robust method, unlike BJJ, or wrestling, where you can train 100%, no injuries, and you're in 'contact' range (thus natural reflexes develop), 'knife sparring' has to be highly mitigated, trained at (for the sake of argument) 50%, you're -not- in contact range, and the reflexes are somewhat derived and less 'natural'.

Arguably, there did once exist people who could fight robustly with weapons and win all of their fights, but that was back in the 16th and 17th century during the age of dueling, when the rapier and H2H being taught by real master sword fighters who survived countless live duels.

I say 'arguably', because we're still not really sure what constitutes a 'real master sword fighter'. He may or may not have gotten to that point (a survivor, essentially) by studying in a school. Chaos is so high, any match is going to require luck, not making any mistakes, and other intangibles.

In defense of Burton's methods, I think he IS trying to add some of the danger back into knife play.

On a parallel note, if you look at the sequece in 'Cold Steel' (reputed to be 'real'), John Styers -does- end the fight by cutting the forehead. The cascade of blood into the opponent's eyes helped stop the fight. Also, don't underestimate what a knife strike to the face can do. The skull is less than 1/8" thick in some places. Ideally, you're shooting for the eyes. Can your hand get cut? See Ray Floro's methods. I think the risk/benefit ratio isn't that bad.

In addition, not to be trivial, if I were going to engage in knife dueling, I'd be wearing a leather wristguard and a kevlar cutting glove.

Don't get me wrong, though. I strongly agree that the current state of 'training' the knife is mostly being done wrong, and highly deficient and even more into the realm of fantasy than necessary.

$0.02

12/4/09 3:33 AM
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BreakUnose
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"Since knife dueling is more-or-less a fantasy..."

I think that sums it up.

Jerry
12/4/09 10:41 AM
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Paul Hopkins
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 the local fencing club uses a lot of protective gear and their suits are wired to scoreboards so that hits are registered and shown on a digital board.

they seem to have fun many students dream of participating in the 2010 olympics

good clean athletic fun imo
12/4/09 6:36 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Paul Hopkins -  the local fencing club uses a lot of protective gear and their suits are wired to scoreboards so that hits are registered and shown on a digital board.

they seem to have fun many students dream of participating in the 2010 olympics

good clean athletic fun imo
Right. But, the fencing club is operating on a clear, performance-based agenda. They have well-defined and demonstrable moves. They'd not just 'swiping' and stabbing and jumping around. They train the 'lunge' and riposte and develop a 'fast close', good reflexes and other attributes, and you can tell a beginner from an 'expert'. To me, almost all 'knife' sparring among students as we see in the video, looks about the same. Very broad movements, not a very good grasp of footwork and using 'pressure'. IMO, they're using the wrong type of training knife and the wrong size. Nobody seems to be able to use any clear 'FMA' type movements, (partly due to problems I mentioned), except maybe defanging.

In a sense, it's all attribute-based. The fastest guys generally will 'win', though it's still highly chaotic practiced as they do. Even the Dog Brothers when trying to do small knife sparring didn't really stand out.

IMO, If you're going to do 'knife sparring' or knife defense or offense, you need a clear curriculum, a clear purpose and methodology, you need to train mostly those things which you can train 'alive' (I've mentioned those in other posts).

Though what Burton is doing is probably a step in the right direction, it still seems vague.

$0.02

 
12/4/09 11:32 PM
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nowaydo
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ttt
12/18/09 6:19 AM
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TylerJamesMead
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im no expert on knife fighting(dueling) by any means. but

WidespreadPanic
In a sense, it's all attribute-based. The fastest guys generally will 'win', though it's still highly chaotic practiced as they do. Even the Dog Brothers when trying to do small knife sparring didn't really stand out.


i agree totally that its almose completetly reliant on attributes

dead drills make some sense to me in this area. fma hub bud style drills(as i understand) train a specific moment in time from an active flow. kind of like box jumps(plyos) you look at the pattern and say pffft thats not fighting but it helps you see that specific moment in time you might pull off out of your hat a defang or(sacrifice) put up your arm to stop a cut to the neck or push off the ground hard to evade a leg kick. this vs just drilling the tech in an ok? ready lets go! here it comes! type of drill vs a keep-up-with-me-you-dont know-when-its-coming-(but you do know what IS coming) type drill. im not saying i believe dead drills are superior to live sparring just that they have a place.

saw a thread on filipino arts and conditioning a while back and someone posted something like

how in shape do you have to be in a knife fight when one of you is gutted in 2 seconds.

in the amateur type fma ive done its all in a defang (that is hard to get if the guy has any game.) or rare occasion of a checking type grab and shot to the body. its too chaotic(and over quick) to develope a solid set cirriculum of any large degree.


talked to a korean war vet years ago about knife fighting he said that whad im doiing is bs. "when we did knife fighting we came from behind (took him out) quietly dragged the body off and continued what we were doing. otherwise wed use our rifle." that knife fencing as he called it was a"quick way to end up KIA"
12/18/09 12:40 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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 ^^ You happen into a situation outside a knife club - a guy draws his knife and you draw yours. Do you engage. Hell, no. You both walk away - it's a stalemate. This is the outcome 99.9% of the time.

The problem with what is being done is illustrated in your comment to me - small knife sparring is the wrong way to do it.


12/19/09 1:48 PM
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4 Ranges
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Love the clip! Burton, please use that bugger on me next time we're in Hawaii. :)

As far as duelling is concerned, it's ALL fantasy. Whether you're duelling wearing gi's and not allowing strikes, to duelling wearing boxing gloves but not allowing kicks, to duelling wearing MMA gloves but not being able to knee the downed opponent.
1/26/10 2:41 AM
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Burton
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Knife "dueling" is a training method to allow you to understand distance and reading. For me, I use it mainly for a means to understand the knife, so that going empty hand against the knife is a touch easier. This is why the FMA teach weapons first- so that you understand the knife and how it moves. That way, the odds of dealing with a knife attack are improved.
I will post some of our emptyhand versus knife sparring in a few weeks. Without the knife to knife sparring, you will have no chance at all.
And by the way, if someone sneaks up and shanks you, there is no defense, so might as well on the situation where you have a chance.
1/26/10 12:15 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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OK, if you 'understand' the knife, explain it to us.

What is the progression for sparring with the knife? What size knife do you use? What are the key points?

I've posted a summary of this to one of the posters on this thread in a PM. After you post your thoughts, I'll post mine.

TIA.

1/27/10 1:19 AM
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laqueus
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I'd say training with a shock knife is better than not training with one. Similar in concept to the no lie blades, but using a different angle. One thing to keep in mind is that going from training with normal training knives to a shock knife is some of the habits might stick around.

BTW, how did you get your hands on them? I understand they're for LEOs only.
1/27/10 8:08 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Shock Knife sent me some for a review that's how I got'em.
If you don't understand the nature of combat it really doesn't matter trainer/shock you could be utilizing both incorrectly.

The standard shock is about 750 wts, it doesn't hurt at all, I put it right on my skin.
Sounds scary, looks scary, but that's about it.
However the psychology behind it has merit if used appropriately.
1/27/10 10:47 AM
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Paul Hopkins
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My knife has a can opener and a philips screwdriver among other things. The local paint store was giving them away a few yers ago. At least twice a month I wll use it at work to access a container of soup or chili.

No way could I afford a shock knife. But they are pretty cool sounding. I remember having a plastic tommy gun as a toddler that made a simulated firing noise when you pulled the trigger!

If people outgrow fantasy there really is no use is living is there?

I think Mos Def said it best,

I don't remember what it was he said but it was awesome.

Would it be a good idea to "knife" spar around a campfire? You could heat up the end of a wooden stick or steel dowel and spar away while the wild boar roasts over the rotisserie.

1/27/10 11:59 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 01/27/10 12:01 PM
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Joe Maffei - Shock Knife sent me some for a review that's how I got'em.
If you don't understand the nature of combat it really doesn't matter trainer/shock you could be utilizing both incorrectly.

The standard shock is about 750 wts, it doesn't hurt at all, I put it right on my skin.
Sounds scary, looks scary, but that's about it.
However the psychology behind it has merit if used appropriately.

 IMO, being good with the knife, i.e. having great attributes is not the same as knowing how to train with the knife.

Some of the best Filipino knife wielders got that way from living with the knife, using it daily in their occupation. They cut cane for 10 hrs a day (or whatever).

Butchers have insane knife skills. You ever see a top-notch butcher carving up a big side of beef? It's frightening. It wouldn't take much for them to learn to apply that to a person. (I think this style is what the Sayoc guys try to train).

BUT, actually knowing the training methodology for the knife is a different thing. Just as some boxers are great but couldn't train someone to save their lives, or some gifted athletes can break records, but rely on their genetic gifts. There's a definite progression to learning to fight with the knife and I've only rarely seen anyone who knew what it was. In fact I see many people proudly demoing their 'style' who, I can tell immediately, have not figured it out.

YES, there are guys who have skills, but they are attribute-based. (First, be Bruce Lee, or Leo Gaje?).

One guy who got it instinctively was Sonny Umpad. He never had an instructor. There's one other I'm aware of. The Nova Scrima guys have a pretty good idea, but they basically use more specificity in their training than a lot of the normal FMA people.

The odd thing is that some of these people (so-called knife fighting experts) are trained or somewhat skilled in bjj (and some MMA), but fail to see there are universal principles common to both that they are grossly failing to apply to their knife work. Some do, of course, but not sure if it's by accident or design.

$0.02

 
1/28/10 1:01 AM
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Burton
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 The shocknives I have give 7500 volts when put on high, and it burns the skin after a brief contact. Unlike the no-lie blades, the shocknife adds fear to the equation. The Battlefield Kali method is based on what every combat athlete needs in order to become skillful- a sparring progression with drills and techniques added to aid in effective sparring. By understanding the knife, I mean having experience in both using it and defending it- not in drills but in hard sparring. This is how reading is developed, along with the sense of distance that is crucial in defending against the knife. We start with a focus on hand only sparring (while still doing other types of sparring), then focus on hand and head, hand and leg, then full sparring. We then work starting in the clinch, and work ground fighting starting on the bottom or on top. The sparring develops he attributes necessary to be able to transition well into the emptyhand vs. knife training. The ability to just slip a full power slash and then enter makes all the difference. We also work on recognizing the draw when sparring empty hand. Kickboxing, clinch, and ground, your partner can pull a knife at any time. This trains you to look for it instead of only recognizing the knife after you have been stabbed. I am happy to say that this program yields very good results in the extremely bad situation of going empty hand against the knife.

I will be posting video of some of the training in a few weeks.
1/30/10 8:53 PM
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OneScoup
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Fucking genius IMO. There's no way to be 100% realistic, but this is a big step in the right direction.
2/1/10 10:18 AM
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Paul Hopkins
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Have you read, "2 cents, a hot stick and the fibrillatory threshold."?
2/1/10 7:18 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Burton -    By understanding the knife, I mean having experience in both using it and defending it- not in drills but in hard sparring. This is how reading is developed, along with the sense of distance that is crucial in defending against the knife.
Interesting reply but extremely vague. How do you develop the sense of distance? There is a specific method. You could take two guys and they could spar with 6-8" wooden, metal, shock knife or lightsaber blades until the cows come home and never develop the sense of distance.

But good luck with your series.

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