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JKD UnderGround >> Shocknife Sparring- Battlefield Kali


2/1/10 10:40 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 02/01/10 10:55 PM
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OneScoup - Fucking genius IMO. There's no way to be 100% realistic, but this is a big step in the right direction.
IMO, it is not that 'genius'. For a parallel example, I don't know that sim-munition is that important compared to 'the basics' in training gun fighting (like SWAT tactics).

If you look at some of the videos on clearing a room and combat pistol craft, it's all about careful movement and specific knowledge not going in and getting shot a bunch of times and 'figuring it out the hard way'. Likewise - knife sparring is a matter of learning distancing, working at a specific 'speed', not doing stuff that is impossible and focusing on what can be trained at nearly 100% aliveness. There's a definite progression. Very specific footwork, and very specific attributes but they are not found in 'sensitivity drills'.

IMO, there are plenty of 'wrong ways' to do it. Some people might have good natural skills and attributes and think their 'method' is what is responsible - the are sometimes puzzled when only a few of their students get any skill with their method. Other times the instructor has some 'base skills' they did which make them effective but don't realize it and failing to get their students the same base (such as Olympic style fencing backgrounds), the students' skills are lacking (just as in Aikido without the base arts that Ueshiba had).

The method that is the best is not entirely based on strong attributes - not on gymnastic ability or super agility or having abnormal reflexes. Yes, there is a high-attribute method, but not everyone can achieve that. There is also the method the old Filipinos used, acquired from working with their knife 10 hrs a day 6 days a week, cutting cane (and butchers, cutting meat). They have an insane familiarity with the blade. It's a tool and a true extension of the body. Modern people can't get that unless their occupation requires use of a knife all day long.

Ray Floro gives some cues. His shield position, his reflex gap knowledge, his non-telegraphic stepping and his understanding of the grip and the narrow angle of entry.

Those things have been ignored in 'modern knife fighing' books. They not only totally miss those details, they also espouse things like wide swinging moves and leaping in and out. They don't analyze space (like BJJ does).

So far only Marc Denny has analyzed 'space' (Die Less Often). And almost nobody is owning up to the fact that things happen so quickly that it's very difficult to do what you intend even if you know 'the moves', when ambushed. (Also evident on the DLO vids).

IMO, you can do 90% of what is needed in knife fighting with a simple training blade made of foam and duct tape. You don't need live blades and 'fear factors'.

YMMV. My $0.02
    
2/2/10 3:38 AM
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Burton
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"You could take two guys and they could spar with 6-8" wooden, metal, shock knife or lightsaber blades until the cows come home and never develop the sense of distance."

Actually, that is incorrect. Sparring is EXACTLY how you develop a sense of exactly how far a person can move in, how far you need to move, etc. Please try this: stop drilling for two months, and just spar. Videotape yourself the first and last day and see what an amazing improvement you have made. This never fails to yield great results.

A good ambush is impossible to defend. This type of training is so that IF you are lucky enough to actually see the knife before you are ambushed, you will have a functional skill set to bring to the fight.

I thank you for your good wishes for the series.
2/2/10 1:13 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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No, Burton it is not the best method. You have to develop an instinctive grasp of your range. The distance where you can just extend and get a hit, the distance where you can extend with a step and get a hit, the distance you can lunge and get a hit, the distance where you can pivot in and get a hit. Knowing your range (and the opponent's range is crucial).

YES, sparring with a training knife will improve your abilities, but I do not think this is the optimal method for internalizing the 'engagement' distance. Why is it not optimal? It's very chaotic, too much information is coming in, and no two matches are the same, neither are any two partners the same.

In all of these the attacker and opponent are getting multiple hits. Maybe the shock knife will cure some of this. But IMO, you need to train the places where you can go 100% or nearly so. Those places are clear if you just look. See the way SBG's Karl Tanswell does it. See the way Crafty dog does it.

We need to also look at 'space'. If you are engaged and the opponent has a big SPACE between him and you, he can just redirect his strikes and kill you. (see Marc Denny's DLO).

People learn best when the input is limited so they can grasp it.

So as far as learning the distancing and ranging, there are two crucial details that are left out as to how to accomplish this.

Yes, I do wish the best for your series. You are obviously trying to do your best to help people in this mode of training.
2/2/10 1:18 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Not to anyone in particular, but I'm amazed at the 'full cup' some people have.

I've virtually telling the answer, but nobody is seeing it. Forget if the answer is valid, people have their agenda and can NOT see the obvious.

Space, lower chaos, internalizing distance and ranging, non-telegraphic attacking, non-attribute based, driving forward, and the basics of true, trainable knife grappling (among them deployment and deployment denial) are key. 

For one thing the blade size is all wrong - the footwork is retarded. Nobody has learned to non-telegraphically lunge, one of BL's biggest (hidden) skills.

HTH

2/5/10 4:08 PM
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Burton
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Your comments prove that you don't spar. I suggest that you try it.
2/6/10 6:15 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 02/06/10 10:32 AM
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Note, I am confining my comments to the topic and not to any individual.

Remember, doesn't matter if you are a world class Olympic athlete, you can still have opinions and be able to critically analyze. Johan Bruyneel doesn't currently race a bike, Angelo Dundee doesn't box, Stephen Hawking isn't a test pilot. (not that I'm in that league).

I've gotten many supportive PMs on my weapons ideas. You are, of course, free to have your own opinions.

2/6/10 10:48 PM
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Burton
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Yes, but the point is that this can all be tested by each individual. I think that you would actually enjoy the process of undergoing a great deal of sparring in order to test and then refine your theories. You may have a revolutionary idea, but you need to test it under absolute resistance before having confidence in it. I believe that you will find the experience incredibly rewarding.
2/6/10 11:43 PM
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Paul Hopkins
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 How about a training knife that is wired up to an ATM machine. And everytime you get touched $149 disappears from your bank account?

2/7/10 11:12 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 02/07/10 12:58 PM
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 There is a specific sequence that is needed to be good with the knife.

There's a delivery system, based on 'pressure' footwork, and driving the opponent back.

There's a method for being able to build up the speed of perception of the movement of the blade. (this is based on sparring, but there's another element people are not talking about)

There's a method to enable a person to know his engagement distance - the jab, the step jab, the lunge, and the pass (as Marc Denny calls it 'the drive by'). This is also based on sparring but includes an element that people here are not discussing - (I don't think they know about it).

There's a method to enable both hands to work together - based on the sequidas, and sinawali and the 'flow'. It also incorporates elements of classical saber fencing.

If I don't see these discussed or evident, I know that what people are doing is based only on attributes and athleticism and not on the specifics, without which you just have two 'whitebelts' going out and manhandling each other. That method is fine in empty hand stuff.

But, as I've said before a knife is a force-multiplier, and movements I've seen are too 'wide' and open. In dealing with a knife attack, if the guy is trying to employ a solution and ignoring basic BJJ principles of 'space' and position, they're just blowing smoke.

But, since it's all 'fantasy' they're welcome to post on the smoke and mirrors. I address specific points, I talk about the specifics of critical analysis. 

Specifics, imo, are necessary to help analyze this difficult game. "Just sparring" will help in other realms, sticks, empty hand sparring - sparring with knives should be an exposition of your specific training elements and it should show.

Just as 'pole shaking' in CMA isn't about how much you can vibrate the tip of the pole - it's a demonstration of your ground path development.
   
2/9/10 10:44 PM
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Edited: 02/09/10 10:45 PM
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JiujitsuForeva - However, I like Burton's stuff, he is one of the few JKD instructors that I have seen that admits that a lot of the older stuff might not be functional and takes it and attempts to make it fuctional. I plan to buy some of his videos.
True about this. But imo, he still is searching for an answer - he doesn't -have- the answer. IMO, Marc Denny is close, Ray Floro is close. There are others.

Look at knife attack videos - people stretch out their arms almost locked at the elbows. Try to understand why they do this. Analyze the 'space' between you and the attacker in ALL knife demo vids. If there's a huge gap you will get evaded and disemboweled by anyone with skill and a sharp blade.

As a threat tool in muggings, there is a lot you can do if you have 'time' on your side and can 'think'. It's a matter of range. If the knife is at your throat you still have 'reflex lag' on your side.

In terms of 'sparring' there are ways to improve your skill. Will it transfer to the Real World? Probably not. People who are fairly skilled and who -know- what to do, still get killed everytime - like the cop who tries to draw his weapon too soon and within knife range - he just can't fight his instinct.

There are things you can do but you have to work hard at it, you have to use the knife as part of your 'job' and you can't let your skills decline even a little (i.e. ring rust and loss of fine skills and ability to range).

Talk to olympic and italian and spanish fencers. Forget RBSD - they're amateurs with the knife in comparison to these guys. Guys like James Keating might be an exception.

$0.02

  
3/1/10 4:21 PM
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Joe Maffei
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Widespread, you know Jim Keating? Jim is an old friend, he's pretty good with a firearm as well. Great at instinct shooting. But most know of him regarding the knife. Great guy.
3/1/10 4:44 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Joe, don't know Jim personally. He trained with one of my instructors. I'm a big fan. Have seen his DVDs.

3/2/10 7:27 AM
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Siciliano
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Question re shockknife: if the back or flat side of the blade comes into contact with you, do you still get shocked? Remember, the only business part of the blade is the edge and the tip.
3/2/10 9:57 AM
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Joe Maffei
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WP any time you want to train with Jim, shoot me an e-mail and I will personally hook you guys up.

Shock: the whole blade conducts the energy.
3/2/10 10:42 AM
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Siciliano
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Then it ain't good . . .
3/2/10 1:23 PM
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Joe Maffei
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It has it's place.

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