UnderGround Forums
 

JKD UnderGround >> Marc Macyoung?


12/1/09 12:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Sir Drinks a lot
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/08
Posts: 94
 
Hi,

I've read a few of Macyoung's books, and also perused his website. Just curious of anyone on here has trained with the guy, and if so, what you thought.
12/1/09 2:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
New2MMA
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/13/03
Posts: 2953
I'm interested too. I really like his site.
12/2/09 1:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
keseki
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/27/03
Posts: 467
Mark has seen a lot of sheet covered corpses in his time.

By the way, a different Mark, Wrestler Mark Schultz, is a Mormon. Mormonism is based on the ideas of Joseph Smith (1805-1844), whose life and revealations bore a remarkable similarity to those of another prophet, the Prophet Muhammad (570-632), whose real name was reputed to be Ubul-Kassim.
12/2/09 5:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
twinkletoesCT
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/26/02
Posts: 8506
Modern Self-Defense Center, Head Instructor
wat
12/8/09 12:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 1968
Holy tangent batman!
12/9/09 10:58 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Seul
20 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/18/02
Posts: 2089
If you don't address him by his full title (marc the animal macyoung) there is no way we can even begin to have this discussion.

Please have a mod delete this thread, start a new one with appropriate modes of address, and we'll go from there.







I like his books, too, I'd be really curious to hear what it's like to train with him in person. I love most of the ideas he presents, but all of the applications he shows (via pictures, I've never seen any of his videos) look a little goofy.
12/9/09 9:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
OneScoup
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/18/02
Posts: 14853
I read one of his books back in the day. As I recall it had some gimmicks and odd stuff, but he was a giant judo and boxing proponent way back when.
12/9/09 10:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3154
 A non-specific answer... (I've seen his stuff).

Some guys manage to get real fight experience through a combination of luck and circumstance. They may or may not know exactly how they were successful. A large part of it might have been just plain 'guts'.

Then, to try to translate that into a 'how-to' book could be problematic.

For a trivial example, an old-style boxer might say 'I did it by running in work boots and eating raw eggs'. But, doing that ain't gonna make the average person a great boxer.

You're better  off working on a base art like boxing, bjj, MT, wrestling, judo, or sambo and working out your own stuff. Then when well-grounded, check out some combat pistol-craft schools and maybe some RBSD run by military guys who probably have decent cred. Layer that kind of skill on top of your base - it's not a substitute.

$0.02

12/11/09 3:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Sir Drinks a lot
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/08
Posts: 108
Actually,

From what I've read Animal (using the correct title obviously) seems to be rabidly against "sport" styles such as boxing and judo. He's pretty disparaging about combat sports on his website.
12/11/09 4:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 1994
This is naturally due to the fact that he's not very good at it.
12/11/09 5:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 12/11/09 5:20 PM
Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3169
 There are little scrappy  guys who have fought a lot and never really been on the losing side. My neighbor from New Jersey was such a guy. Yes, it was in and after highschool, but on the 'mean streets'. He just was quick on the draw, knew when to fight or run, and knew how to finish a fight quickly.

We sparred around for fun and he didn't show me anything special - but again, he never fought 'fair' in the street. He could throw pretty good haymakers. I'm not saying I totally understood how he was such a good fighter, beyond that.

So guys like MM take this and run with it. They learn some TMA and some RSBD, infuse it with there multitude of 'street experiences' and do OK, within limits. You  wouldn't want to go up and hassle a guy like this because, having stabbed people before, they're perfectly willing to stab you. Experience is the best teacher. It's alive, the opponent is 'resisting' (lol) and it's completely unrehearsed (chaotic, even). Those who survive learn stuff. Do they always fully comprehend why they 'won'? Maybe, maybe not.

Does that make them a good teacher? As one instructor says, 80% of fighting ability is aggression, aggressiveness. If you're willing to throw down with all out war every time you decide to engage, and do it unexpectedly, and 'cheat', (when you're not running/evading), you'll win most fights you'll have with non-professionals, more if you are willing to carry and use weapons and have a lucky streak.

Back in the day, there was a gap between really good books on MA and just historical works and 'style books', showing kata and how to make a fist and books on effective application (like books on boxing, or fencing). Books by guys like MM filled this niche. To me, now, they're dated. Who doesn't know that if you get attacked, you've palmed your knife and you cut the guy and then kick him in the head on the ground and run away?

$0.02

 
12/11/09 10:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Seul
20 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/18/02
Posts: 2104
^^^hmmm, interesting. I agree 100% about the aggressiveness thing, just being big, mean, tough, strong, or violent (or even better, some combination of all of them) goes very very far.
12/11/09 10:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Seul
20 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/18/02
Posts: 2105
^^^hmmm, interesting. I agree 100% about the aggressiveness thing, just being big, mean, tough, strong, or violent (or even better, some combination of all of them) goes very very far.
12/12/09 2:35 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
shen
888 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 10946
FWIW, have read a few of his books and seen his (& Peyton's videos) and they have some good info.

I never trained with Animal but I know one person who has at a seminar. He was a fellow self-defense instructor at the company I used to work for.

My co-worker was not especially impressed by Macyoung's skill or the techniques he taught in person.
12/12/09 8:04 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 1996
Yeah, it seems he has some good ideas and that's it. The thing that really struck me was his comment about escaping a situation. He mentioned that people always bring up excuses as to why they can't run, but if you really need to run you'll find a way. He's probably right about that. That said, if I'm with my girlfriend and someone's pressing the issue to attack us, I'll weigh my options and if I figure I've got a good shot at it, it's a damn good excuse to beat up some douche.
12/12/09 10:07 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
twinkletoesCT
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 12/12/09 10:07 AM
Member Since: 12/26/02
Posts: 8534
Modern Self-Defense Center, Head Instructor
That said, if I'm with my girlfriend and someone's pressing the issue to attack us, I'll weigh my options and if I figure I've got a good shot at it, it's a damn good excuse to beat up some douche.




Laqueus, I really really really hope you won't take this personally, because I don't mean it as a statement or a judgment about you...not at all!  I'm taking a single quote OUT of context because I liked the rest of what you wrote, but I see a single thread of conversation that, to me, is a gigantic issue and entirely noteworthy. 



This mentality (that I've quoted OUT of laqueus's more sensible context) is what's wrong with most self-defense training. 



How does one go about gauging if they've got a "good shot" at winning a fight?  Do they try to measure this person against their sparring partners?  Compare it to other fights they've been in?  Guess? 



Here are things you DON'T know when sizing up a situation:


  • What training this person has received

  • This person's psychiatric history

  • This person's medical history (what diseases are they carrying?)

  • What things are in this person's pockets.  What weapons or other major factors are still concealed?

  • What substances are in this person's system, right now?

  • Who, in this situation, is on that person's side?  Or, who would join their side?

  • Is luck on my side today?

  • Is luck on his side today?


I think that these questions are better questions than the ones we might ask ourselves.  I think more commonly we think things like "Well, I spar a guy his size and I do just fine."  I think that our training, in our sterile, limited-variables environment, makes us confident that we "could take him in a fight" because if this were training, we could take him. 



And then the question becomes "what happens when I decide I can take this guy, and then right as I engage him physically, I twist my ankle, fall to the ground, he starts soccer kicking me, I try to recover, and he pulls a weapon?"  This is not exactly a good situation.  Is this every situation?  Let's hope not.  Could it be?  It could be just as likely as you "handling him". 



This is, I believe, why most instructors encourage people to fight as a last resort.  There are SO MANY VIARIABLES that you have no control over...where, when, why, and most importantly, WHO.  Why would you ever enter into a situation that could get you hurt...perhaps seriously?  It's like deciding to play chicken with him in your cars, because you feel you've got a good chance of winning.  Would you do this casually?  Or would you only choose this in the most desparate situation?




12/12/09 12:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3171
Back in the day, when TMAs prevailed, most, if not all of the brown belts had this 'fever' to get into a fight and test their skills. They didn't quite realize that because of the way they trained, there was a surplus of aggression remaining, (punching air and doing katas only takes you so far). And, they were unsure of themselves - though you'd never know it.

Now, with real sparring, in a ring, sometimes going for a knockdown, and real rolling, sometimes going 100%, and always going for a sub, the aggression gets released. AND, there's no doubt about one's abilities.

Now, yes, (per CT) there is always going to be a guy that can beat you. But there are going to be almost no situations in a civilized world where you will be forced to fight against your will.

For one thing, if you're highly trained and skilled and can -actually- fight, you can be the one who chooses to fight. It's easy to 'not fight', physically. Big tough guy wants to fight me, I can evade - maybe pop him with a leg kick - and walk away. When a guy sees he can't hit you, sees your mobility and skill, he's gonna stop soon. You go up against 'Willie Pep' and after about 10 seconds, you're hoping he lets you buy him a beer - IOW.

So, well-trained, fight a lot, low aggro, nothing to prove, no real will to fight (unless you're getting paid). Not well-trained, don't spar much, high aggro, everything to prove, will to (foolishly) fight - even pick fights.

There are really two situations in SD. One, you -can- walk away. The other - a predator is after you and/or your loved ones and you're backed into a corner, there's no choice, no escape and threat level is off the charts. Then, and only then physically engage. BUT, be looking for a way to evade or escape asap - you can still go to jail, the perp can still try to sue you in a civil suit.

$0.02
12/12/09 1:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Sir Drinks a lot
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/08
Posts: 109
I disagre with Macyoung's emphasis on runing away for a few reasons.

1)If I am with my girlfriend, it's by no means sure that we will BOTH be able to run fast enough AND long enough to outdistance all pursuers. Therefore we would risk running, and then me being too winded to defend us if we had to stop. Or if we were caught.

2)Fighting is by no means the ONLY answer. RUNNING isn't either. It depends on the situation.

3)I see NO reason to train any combat sport/martial art, if all you plan to do is run away whenever you are confronted. Martial arts should, to a sensible degree, be about standing your ground sometimes.

Depending on the situation,and utilising the old noggin obviously.

I think running away at the drop of a hat is a little extreme.


4)You may be in a situation were you can't run ie: your home. Whar will you do if confronted on your doorstep?

Not having a dig at anyone who's posted here. There are some interesting replies. I mean "you" in a general sense.

Widespread, have you ever trained with Macyoung?
12/12/09 1:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Sir Drinks a lot
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/08
Posts: 110
I also think it can be counter-productive to focus too much on what can go wrong.

Be realistic yes. Certainly.

But dwelling on all the things that can go wrong in a fight/confrontation, could simply lead to freezing and/or panic. It could hinder you from taking decisive action when you need to.
12/13/09 12:13 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3174
Sir Drinks a lot - I disagre with Macyoung's emphasis on runing away for a few reasons.
...
Widespread, have you ever trained with Macyoung?
There are many ways to analyze SD. One of them is a 'risk/benefit' ratio. If you are not in an area where there is a risk, then is it worth spending an inordinate amount of time training SD, tactics and strategy if there's almost a zero percent chance you're going to need it? Just be fit, be ABLE to run if necessary, and train your loved ones what to do in such an emergency (just like you might do a fire drill in the home). Drill it. (see the 'girlfriend' section of DLO by Marc 'Crafty Dog'.

It's the same idea as having skills in groundfighting. You want to be ABLE to groundfight if needed. You use them to GET BACK UP, if taken down. You use them to put the other guy on the ground. Running is a strategy - you might run to a better environment (between parked cars for multiples), or to get the perp tired, then attack them when they're gassed. You might run to a place with no witnesses.

IF you are finding yourself in a situation where you NEED to seriously consider SD - get a dog, get a gun, move to a more peaceful location, or hire a bodyguard. If you  have to rely on some kind of H2H, then you've failed to exercise several layers of options. A soldier only resorts to H2H when his weapon and when 'battlefield' tactics fail. He learns H2H because, after all, he is in a war zone.

So train as though you might have to fight H2H, get a base art, be fit, but realize that in reality, you're almost never going to need it after High School (i.e. stopping bullies).

If you 'fight' in the real world you ARE going to go to jail for assault, even if you didn't start it. If you seriously hurt the attacker, you will be paying his medical bills. (it's not 1960 anymore).

So, choose your 'battles' carefully. Have them in the gym, and/or be sure you're getting paid for them.

$0.02

 
12/13/09 12:17 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3175
 Oh, forgot - no never trained with him, but read a couple of his books, watched one DVD, I think. I would have a basic disagreement with him. He doesn't appreciate 'sporting' MA as a way to fighting skill. I think it's one of the only paths. I think he's basically deluded on that aspect (logic tight).

I have trained with some RBSD guys. It's ok to layer on top of your base art, but don't mistake it AS a base art (like Judo, BJJ, boxing, Sambo, Wrestling, Boxing).

HTH

12/13/09 10:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lord Kancho
21 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/08
Posts: 924
I read a Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling. the author talked about how he confronted some young turks in the entrance to a washroom. One came at him with a perfect front kick, the other put him in a full nelson... then the author fended off the kick and informed them that he couldn't disengage the full nelson without seriously injuring the guy behind him. The two parties disengaged and, with mutual respect earned, the author left the bathroom and the other two took their dumps.

I was left thinking... what kind of loser can provoke a fight with two strangers in a rest room?
12/18/09 4:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Sir Drinks a lot
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/08
Posts: 119
Widespread,

Do you rate Macyoung as being a real fighter? The real deal as it were? If so, or not, would you go into why?

Interested in your point of view.
12/18/09 5:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 12/18/09 5:32 PM
Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3224
 My understanding is he had a fair number of skirmishes, several with live blades and even survived some ambushes.

Real fighting, i.e. actual engagment with someone trying to harm you is the ultimate in 'alive training'. It's 100%, intent, footwork, timing, and high chaos.

But, being very high chaos, it's not always easy to glean information from it. You know how you react under pressure, you know if you go 'blank' and can't remember the fight, you know if you freeze or panic, or get mad, or are in control of your anger. You have an idea of your level of adrenaline dump and if you get uncoordinated or do you keep it together.

So, evidently, he had good recall of his fights, tried to gather information from real world situations and wrote books about it.

Was he a real fighter, in the sense he had reliable skills which he could demonstrate against a highly trained athlete? It depends on the situation. In limited ways, yes. He would have a 'killer instinct' and fight to win, probably was good at getting the first strike in, willing to hurt the other guy, to cheat. These are all kind of 'intangibles'. Modern day cage fighters have all he had and more. Will to win, killer instinct is all there.

In relation to TMA guys, back in the day (the 80s?), MacYoung had all the experience that typical college level MA hobbyists lacked. So he got respect.

We now know what is effective training, what is overly optimistic and we know it's 'how you train', do you have a 'delivery system', can you bring your weapons to bear, do you train like you would fight? If so, then it's up to attributes. Aggression, speed, strength, durability. He wasn't a big guy. Maybe he could take a punch, see his own blood and keep going. He seems to put down 'sport' MA application, but he's not real clear why. Just because someone is willing to 'bite off your nose' to win, doesn't mean he's going to get in range to do so against an athletic fighter. Many TMA guys use this idea of 'I'll blind you and rip out your groin', but it turns out to be overly optimistic - they don't have a 'delivery system' and end up defending when the athletic fighter controls the fight.

Currently, it looks like he's gotten out of shape, and his students don't look very athletic. So it appears they have some 'slack' in their training. I don't know him, have never seen him in a live seminar, so I don't know if he really has the 'right stuff'. HTH

$0.02
 
12/18/09 7:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Sir Drinks a lot
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/08
Posts: 120
I do dislike the fact that he is so vehemently against "sport" martial arts.

I used to think this way years ago, but have since come to believe differently.

I really believe that sport combat is the way to go if you want to develop real, useable, skills. I just don't see another way toward doing it.

Much is made these days of "Aliveness," but the fact remains that it has always existed in "sportive" MA and so, is nothing new. But, it is the way to go if we want to develop functional skills.

Regarding Macyoung, I do like his approach toward the psychological side of things, but I think his diparaging of combat sports stems from simple insecurity. Of course, I could be wrong as I don't know Macyoung.

I just think we need the combat sports for the physical side, and then we need to add awarenees, avoidance ect.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.