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JKD UnderGround >> Marc Macyoung?


12/18/09 10:07 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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I don't know, off-hand, his specific complaint, probably one of the standard lines 'we'd just bite', or something.

But I always say, 'I can teach a top tier MMA fighter to bite faster than I can teach a guy who tries to bite you MMA'.

In addition, not trying to be argumentative, but I don't think you can teach someone MA and then expect them to 'be cautious'. Most of the time it causes 'bravado', doesn't it?

The tactics are common sense - lock your driver's side door while driving, walk in pairs, avoid bad sections, don't go to rowdy night clubs and start fights. But in his day, guys like this found a way to sell books and did it better (arguably) than selling a book on kata.


12/19/09 5:03 PM
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Sir Drinks a lot
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I agree with what you say about MA developing more bravado. I think it's understandable as I suppose most people get into MA because they need/want to feel stronger and NOT take crap from people. Lots of people get into MA because they are being/or have been bullied. I suppose it depends where a person is in their life. Age being a major factor.

I'm not saying a gung ho attitude is good by the way.

It's also true that most self defense, "reality based" or other wise, is mostly a matter of simple common sense and maturity. Most people aovid fights instinctively, and by employing the aforementioned maturity and common sense.
12/19/09 5:36 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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Sir Drinks a lot - It's also true that most self defense, "reality based" or other wise, is mostly a matter of simple common sense and maturity. Most people aovid fights instinctively, and by employing the aforementioned maturity and common sense.


Agreed, but if you read enough posts on the UG, you'll question it. :)
12/19/09 5:38 PM
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Sir Drinks a lot
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How do you mean?
12/19/09 6:36 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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"Most people avoid fights...by employing the maturity and common sense."

YES. Absolute agreement here.

But the average poster on the UG does not fall within this definition of "most people". I can't tell you how many posts I've read over there recently that advocate throwing down with anyone who looks at you funny.

I need to stay out of that forum. I'm losing brain cells.
4/4/10 10:37 AM
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Seul
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^^^I actually had a similar experience with his stuff, I picked a few of his books up at a used bookstore. I grew up in a nice, safe, "soft" environment (with only a few exceptions), and his stuff on awareness helped me out a lot. I was only in real danger of being beaten up badly once in my younger days, and I was able to haul ass fast enough to get away (lol).

I was fortunate enough to train with a guy who had grown up in a pretty rough situation (he was about 60 now, but had been involved in gang life for most of his youth and learned kung fu from a bunch of 1st generation chinese guys in the 50's and 60's). I was learning tai chi from him (suprisingly fun and effective, imo), but he was really able to help me out by giving me some idea of street smarts.

I had zero experience dealing with "predators", and reading all of Macyoung's books and getting clued in a little by this guy helped me figure some stuff out that helped me avoid some bad spots when I got older.
4/5/10 1:13 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 04/05/10 1:14 AM
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LeeVanTeeth - I told Macyoung about the thread and he checked it out. He wanted me to pass this on,


From Macyoung himself:

You can tell them that my 'dislike' for sports martial arts is not against the systems themselves. It's people (whether the teacher or the student) trying to claim it's something it isn't. It's the misrepresentation and overselling of something as a 'wundertool' (especially one that is all you need.) Violence is a complex subject that goes well beyond just physical techniques and one's personal attitude. Yet the people who are profiting from promoting 'this is all you need' won't tell you what they aren't telling you about the subject. As long as you stay in the safety of a school, dojo, tournament or cyberspace, that ignorance won't get you killed or thrown in prison. It will if you ever find yourself in a live-fire situation. Sport is sport. It doesn't become bad until you try to sell it as something it isn't.

Marc may have an 'instinctive' feeling about MMA as a sport and 'street violence' but he's not able to 'conceptualize' it.

For example, what I think he means is that there are two types of assailants. There are people who just try to get over on you - a 'bully' or a road rager and then there are 'predators' a completely different class of opponent.

He's suggesting that 'sporting types' are not able to 'ramp it up' to deal with a predator type - and he has a point. But the 'ramp up' of a pro-MMA guy skill-wise is very far above even the predator mentality - they have a 'killing instinct' that is missing from 99.99% of normal martial artists  - just like a prison stabbing with the 'sewing machine' attack is far above a typical mugging knifing.

He fails to understand that it's about how you train. And here's a simple answer for him.

It is MUCH easier for me to train a sport MMA guy to do RBSD and deal with 'street violence' (I could do it in a long weekend), than to teach a RBSD guy to do MMA. (it would take years).

So, while Marc's stuff is good it does not qualify as a 'Base system' (such as judo, bjj, wrestling, boxing, MT, sambo). It needs to be layered on top of a base system to be effective. MacYoung may be able to make it work, but in general his seminar students, lacking a base system, can not - it's still a collection of tricks and tips that you have to 'remember' while under stress - not a cohesive functionalized delivery system.

HTH
   
4/5/10 2:54 AM
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nowaydo
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"...It is MUCH easier for me to train a sport MMA guy to do RBSD and deal with 'street violence' (I could do it in a long weekend), than to teach a RBSD guy to do MMA. (it would take years)."

I second that!
4/6/10 8:14 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 04/06/10 8:15 AM
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Great insight on this, WSP.

I love the distinction there about different attacks. There's a difference between someone who wants to hurt you (Roadrage, Bar-thug, bully, mugger) and someone who wants to kill you (prison shanking).
4/6/10 2:12 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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One thing I do have to agree with and that is that the -answer- to violence and danger in the street is -not- more violence. It's awareness, prevention, de-escalation, and not being in the bad part of town.

Similarly, to me, the LEO that never has to draw his weapon is probably superior about following procedure, getting backup, not being a cowboy.

If an MMA guy has the mindset that he can bluster or muscle his way through confrontations that's not good either. So, in a sense, being too good at physical self-defense can be a drawback.

I think it's important to make a distinction in your mind about what a 'real' threat is. It's not someone in a bar pushing you, or someone calling you names or calling you out. It's the mugger, the guy in your house at night, a violent predator backing you into a corner so you have no choice but to fight for your self or your family.

$0.02
4/6/10 2:39 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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WSP: I argue with people far too often, but it's something I have to make as a distinction in these kinds of discussions.

'You've never been in a situation where you are facing down 5 guys in a back alley'.

Right, because I'm smart enough to not get into that situation despite hanging out in bad bad bad parts of town.
4/7/10 4:30 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Kai Tremeche - WSP: I argue with people far too often, but it's something I have to make as a distinction in these kinds of discussions.

'You've never been in a situation where you are facing down 5 guys in a back alley'.

Right, because I'm smart enough to not get into that situation despite hanging out in bad bad bad parts of town.
Kai - I'm not sure who you are quoting, but consider. In just what kind of situation is a person facing down 5 guys in a back alley? This is only found in the movies. A normal person past High School is -never- going to have this happen. Even if it did happen it's the kind of thing that is provoked by someone looking for trouble, and in addition to that, what is their motive? Are they trying to kill you? (I'll leave out things like a white guy wandering around parts of East L.A. - he shouldn't be there anyway, or someone in prison being where he shouldn't be.)

And, what martial art is going to protect you against that many people? None. (I realize this is not -your- position.)
 

4/7/10 4:40 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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LeeVanTeeth - "Similarly, to me, the LEO that never has to draw his weapon is probably superior about following procedure, getting backup, not being a cowboy."

In any city over 200K population it means the guy is a human slug. I almsot don't see how it is possible in any big city for an intelligent LEO not to have pulled it out several times a year. 
What? More and more LEOs are female, or college-educated types. Ask yourself what situations a LEO will draw his weapon that he couldn't have handled by calling for back up? Very, very few. I'm not talking about SWAT teams, I'm talking about the cop driving a beat, usually with a partner. Perhaps I should have said 'Fire his weapon, though'.

Here's an interesting quote from Portland, Ore:
"On average, Portland police were involved in 7.3 shootings a year - although in one year 1989 - there was just one shooting and no one was hit"
http://www.theppsc.org/Archives/DF_Articles/Files/Oregon/92-Oregonian_Study.htm
 
BTW, Portland is the 30th-largest U.S. city, with a population of 575,930 (2008 Census). My point was not about LEOs being 'slugs' or not - it was about the use of your brain in SD as opposed to some kind of physical response in a non-life threatening altercation.
4/7/10 7:43 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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WidespreadPanic - ]Kai - I'm not sure who you are quoting, but consider. In just what kind of situation is a person facing down 5 guys in a back alley? This is only found in the movies. A normal person past High School is -never- going to have this happen. Even if it did happen it's the kind of thing that is provoked by someone looking for trouble, and in addition to that, what is their motive? Are they trying to kill you? (I'll leave out things like a white guy wandering around parts of East L.A. - he shouldn't be there anyway, or someone in prison being where he shouldn't be.)

And, what martial art is going to protect you against that many people? None. (I realize this is not -your- position.)
 



Its the counterpoint people who are against alive sportive MA usually come up with, as in what am I going to do in that situation.

You share my point: there is nothing you can do if you fucked up that bad that you are in that situation. Except run.
4/7/10 9:35 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Tactics and little tricks are like paint on a house, there is so much more to do prior to spending real time on the paint. The paint is an easy fix, while the foundation has ultimate importance and has to be sound. But it doesn't hurt to check out the color chart.
Priorities....just a thought.
4/9/10 12:20 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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LeeVanTeeth - "Ask yourself what situations a LEO will draw his weapon that he couldn't have handled by calling for back up?"

Are you actually LEO? Have you ever worked with little to no back up? It isn't exactly like TV. Just from personal experience you can't always expect to have sometimes even one officer to back you on a number of runs. Do you mean draw a weapon and point it or jsut draw it out. Just clearing a house with a possible suspect requires drawn weapon. Another example would be a felony traffic stop. 

"I'm talking about the cop driving a beat, usually with a partner."

Also add that less and less are their two man cars anymore. I have a slight feeling you are getting alot of your information from television.  No offense but what you are saying sounds real nice, but is not the case at all.

 My friend, you're missing the whole point of this EXAMPLE of RBSD situations. I'm not trying to give an authentic pic of a LEO's use of a gun - just giving an example of a non-violent response to threats.

Let's just skip it and move on.

11/24/10 10:21 AM
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KidJustice
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 Animal lives near my house. I've been meaning to hook up with him during a seminar. I'll report back when I do.
11/25/10 11:19 PM
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Majic Sam
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Being a custom furniture painter,by trade,I agree with Joe.If you are smart,chances are that you will avoid most bad scenarios,and train both sport and for the unexpected.Not an either/or being on high alert at all times.It's far too simplistic to think that because you want to have the killer instict at hand means that you are always paranoid,and afraid of people.

I'm a mere 5'8,145 lbs.I don't hang out in biker bars,slobbering drunk and alone,BUT,I do ride late transit on weekends,often drunk and alone,by choice.Have been lucky in life...so far.I'm a huge Vunak fan,and my best friends is one of the top freestyle wrestling technical coaches on the planet.I don't see a separation.

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