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TMA UnderGround >> Shotokan is for pussies.


4/29/11 10:56 AM
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e. kaye
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Missing Glove Tape - I would look to kyokushin or an offshoot well before shotokan, but the kumite videos are certainly better than the typical point-fighting bullshit that's still pervasive today.

I guess if I were looking for a striking TMA, a traditional JKA style dojo would suffice. It's funny, too, I was just reading one of Nakayama's 'best karate' books yesterday and it was actually kind of refreshing to see how basic and non-mcdojoy and fantasy-based it read.

 Shotokan and Kyokushin both have their strong points and their weak points.   For me, a Shotokan man looking at Kyokushin, the sparring makes no sense.     It is great that they have leg kicks, but there is no defense or evasion.   Just stand there and wail.  Sure it makes you tough, but once you throw in punching to the head and grappliing, you are a sitting duck.   At the YMCA in NYC, they have classes in Seido, Jujitsu and Judo and occassionally Seido guys would come to the Jujitsu class.    The basically had no ability ot defend their heads.   Since they never had to in sparring, they had a serious gap in their defense.
4/29/11 11:44 AM
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Ogami Itto
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What's your critique of shotokan, e?
4/29/11 11:57 AM
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e. kaye
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 At least as it is taught in the US, they have eliminated all of the circular punches.   The discourage movement to the side when evading.  Only straight ahead and straight back.   No leg kicks.   And they do not teach the real bunkai of the kata.   There is a lot of jujitsu in there that they simply do not teach.   I learned this through my own research and from taking jujitsu.  All of sudden, many of the movements made sense.   Every turn in a kata is a throw for instance.
4/29/11 12:03 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Interesting!
4/29/11 12:05 PM
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e. kaye
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 There are hook punches and uppercuts that they do not teach anymore.   One time, one of the Japanese teachers came back from Japan with a new book from JKA headquarters with bunkai for the kata.   I asked about it and was told, "Not for you".
4/29/11 12:14 PM
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Ogami Itto
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e. kaye -  There are hook punches and uppercuts that they do not teach anymore.   One time, one of the Japanese teachers came back from Japan with a new book from JKA headquarters with bunkai for the kata.   I asked about it and was told, "Not for you".


Weird. You know, as a student of kendo it's interesting to me how the different branches of budo have managed their politics and distribution of policy. Kendo has done a good job of keeping it Japanese, but then again kendo without Japanese loses a lot of its content and purpose, whereas judo and karate can and perhaps should mingle with other arts.

But I don't understand why you would be denied access to curriculum. That would never happen in kendo or judo, which adhere to a more western-influenced educational mindset (both impacted heavily by contact with the west, btw, during the 1800s).
4/29/11 12:45 PM
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khd29
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e. kaye - 
Missing Glove Tape - I would look to kyokushin or an offshoot well before shotokan, but the kumite videos are certainly better than the typical point-fighting bullshit that's still pervasive today.

I guess if I were looking for a striking TMA, a traditional JKA style dojo would suffice. It's funny, too, I was just reading one of Nakayama's 'best karate' books yesterday and it was actually kind of refreshing to see how basic and non-mcdojoy and fantasy-based it read.

 Shotokan and Kyokushin both have their strong points and their weak points.   For me, a Shotokan man looking at Kyokushin, the sparring makes no sense.     It is great that they have leg kicks, but there is no defense or evasion.   Just stand there and wail.  Sure it makes you tough, but once you throw in punching to the head and grappliing, you are a sitting duck.   At the YMCA in NYC, they have classes in Seido, Jujitsu and Judo and occassionally Seido guys would come to the Jujitsu class.    The basically had no ability ot defend their heads.   Since they never had to in sparring, they had a serious gap in their defense.


When, I left Kyokushin and trained briefly with World Oyama Karate, the sensei broke down and always practiced the movements (footwork) which I thought was lacking with my Kyokushin training. It really didn't make sense to me trying to exchage shots with my opponent. Not sure if this is how KK evolved. I read somewhere that WOK incorporates a lot of sabaki, like Ashihara and Enshin, and therefore can not be considered a 'hard' style like KK. Maybe someone can explain further. It's still a full contact, knockdown karate so, it is a 'hard' style, imo. Regardless, I am back at WOK and loving it.

I trained at a JKA dojo in Brooklyn for 6 months and far as Shotokan goes, to me, this 'feels like' karate. Dont get me wrong, I love knockdown karate, sometimes I think its like kickboxing. A very simplistic POV, sorry. I hope I can explain myself better.
4/30/11 8:00 AM
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cdueck
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Kyokushin is straight forward in your face Karate. It will make you very tough. The biggest glaring weakness is the lack of head punches but there is much more. Due to the rule set in competition they don't practice groin attacks or sweeps and throws. I have trained Kyokushin and  love it but I understand what it doesn't teach that often. I have had the pleasure of watching two very tough old Shotokan instructors play spar and the range of techniques they used was amazing. Due to competition in Kyokushin I feel it has lost many of the self defence aspects that it once had, I believe this has turned it into a fighting style with budo rather than a true style of Karate.  I feel Enshin has taken off where Kyokushin has fallen as they use a full body of trips and throws in there sparring which makes it much more self defence applicable.
  
5/1/11 1:12 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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Did Machida(and Silva before him) just shut everyone up(especially me) forever about the value and application of shotokan karate? LOL

5/2/11 9:14 AM
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Ogami Itto
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It seems to me that the point fighting/competition aspects of karate completely take it down the wrong path. You'd be better off pursuing your (gasp!) kata and (gasp!!) one-two-three steps.
5/2/11 9:27 AM
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Kumite4
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Ogami Itto - It seems to me that the point fighting/competition aspects of karate completely take it down the wrong path. You'd be better off pursuing your (gasp!) kata and (gasp!!) one-two-three steps.

 The point fighting isnt the problem... its knowing when your doing points and when you arent. In good point Karate tournies its very VERY difficult to score full points much like it is to score Ippons in Judo. Remembering that its a game youre playing is the key. Its a game just like judo, wrestling and BJJ. All of those systems have point sparring and competitions thaty require tweaking before entering the ring for real.
5/2/11 9:41 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Kumite4 - 
Ogami Itto - It seems to me that the point fighting/competition aspects of karate completely take it down the wrong path. You'd be better off pursuing your (gasp!) kata and (gasp!!) one-two-three steps.

 The point fighting isnt the problem... its knowing when your doing points and when you arent. In good point Karate tournies its very VERY difficult to score full points much like it is to score Ippons in Judo. Remembering that its a game youre playing is the key. Its a game just like judo, wrestling and BJJ. All of those systems have point sparring and competitions thaty require tweaking before entering the ring for real.


But doesn't training for competition distract you from the real art of fighting readiness? Or are you saying you can balance a healthy competitive karate with a non-competitive karate?

I know as a kendo man we have pretty much admitted that kendo is a combative sport. It has a lot of its budo aspects and always will but if we were really trying to learn the art of the sword and not the art of the shinai kendo as it is now would probably be a distraction. That said, I guess I would take my own advice and say kendo does llow full contact sparring and competition gives you a real chance to pressure test your skills. So maybe I should take the same view of karate.
5/2/11 12:42 PM
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Ogami Itto
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5/2/11 12:45 PM
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Ogami Itto
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5/2/11 12:46 PM
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Ogami Itto
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5/2/11 12:51 PM
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Ogami Itto
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^awesome moves at 2:40 on.
5/2/11 12:55 PM
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Kumite4
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 If all you do is points you can really fall into that rut.. and thats fine for someone who wants nothing more than to compete and have fun. I will never put anyone down if they solely want to play the Karate or TKD or Judo game. I do have an issue with people who claim to be able to teach real self defense and claim to be "fighters" if they never go heavy contact once in awhile. The only way to be a fighter is to fight.

I still warm up with kata a lot. I still do one stepping. But if you use these tools right they are nothing but good for you. Honestly... stand there squared off with a partner and have them just launch a punch at your chin at full speed. The reflex and timing it takes to get out of the way is an important skill. The eye / hand  .. the ability to get over the fear of the punch and stay there in the pocket... the side step... all these things should be practiced and one stepping is a good way to do it.

I always explain to my students that kata and one stepping ARE NOT FIGHTING and will not make you a fighter. They will however give you that explosive muscle twitch needed for fighting. They will give you the ability to pick up on an imcoming strike and react to it.

Its the same as jumping rope or shadow boxing. Niether of these things make you a fighter, they are tools a fighter would use to train their body.
5/6/11 8:36 AM
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japaneseperson
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Ogami Itto - <object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/j2pvVVcjync?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/j2pvVVcjync?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

great example of a guy in his 60's still being faster then 99.9% of the guys(15-40's) on this forum. imagine how fast he was in his PRIME. ouch.
6/4/11 1:22 AM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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ttt

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