UnderGround Forums
 

Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Who is the best Newaza guy of the last 30 years?


5/4/10 2:28 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
20 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 559

I just remembered the name of the tournament the add said Moreira won, the Isao Okano friendship cup. Anyone heard of that tournament?

5/4/10 12:37 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
barroids
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/04/10 12:38 PM
Member Since: 4/1/06
Posts: 429
I have no doubt that Rickson (along with many other elite BJJ champions) would school probably all judoka in pure newaza.

But what that has to do with this thread I have no idea.

Judo newaza begins with tachiwaza. It would end the way judom said - an ambulance. The competitive pool in judo is 10 million deep and the elite are mutants.
5/4/10 1:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JoshuaResnick
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/02
Posts: 12027
you know, i once slammed the living shit out of the world champion at -66, Mireshmalli from Iran.. i mean, i slammed him into next week. i also pinned and armlocked him.

count that on my record! in fact, USA Judo should've considered that points for me and given me the A+ ranking i rightfully deserved. who cares if if was during the training camp AFTER the tournament. oh, and my word better be enough evidence.

i also, in that same camp, or maybe it was another one, beat up on Omigawa a bit.. sure, he kicked me down once with a kouchi, but i slammed him too. He won the tre torri and guido sienne, so that would make me at least B athlete there too...

serioulsy. you dipwads who take this stuff as Rickson's training logs, or what people say so-and-so could do in this or that scenario just need to get a life. if BJJ had any form of legitimate organization at the time, or even now, that would be one thing.... but it doesnt and it does not want to-- that would mean drug testing, fairness in the rules and officiating, etc, etc....

nobody is saying that Rickson, or anybody else for that matter, is not highly skilled in newaza.. not even saying he isnt a great competitor. i am saying that the 400-0 is garbage if for no other reasons than:
1. no legit organization to track it.
2. overall level of competition in many of those 400 wins is laughable.
3. training sessions do not mean a damn thing.

enough said? good.

oh, and this thread is about the best NEWAZA guy on a Judo/Sambo forum... far as I am aware, Rickson cannot even be entered into the conversation.
5/4/10 7:56 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
junon
35 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/04/10 8:01 PM
Member Since: 11/30/02
Posts: 16991
nm.
5/5/10 2:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
HoldYerGround
163 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/10/08
Posts: 701
Well... Rickson did practice Judo.

I don't believe the hype though.
5/5/10 7:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zrazys
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 101
For my money, wrestlers are the BEST at grappling. No, they don't do submissions, but if we took some guys from the NCAA tournament and, others from the Olympic Freestyle level and, put-em up against Resnick and, company, we wouldn't be reading stories about Resnick's hard slams.

No submissions until we have several generations of FILA Grappling experience (and who know if this Catch thing will lead anywhere)

Just throws, grappling and, pins.

You Judokas just aren't gonna throw wrestlers around like you can BJJ guys. Your in for a different experience.
Without your gi's, your skills are just solid Greco/Free style wrestling, but the wrestlers know their trade better.

Hey, how about Josh Barnett against a top newaza guy? Who do you think would win?
5/5/10 7:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JoshuaResnick
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/02
Posts: 12030
Do you have ANY IDEA WTF you are saying?

you do realize that wrestling is the top grappling sport only in the USA, right? Throughout the rest of the ENTIRE WORLD Judo is top-dog.

In Georgia, Russia, Iran, the entire Eastern Bloc, Japan, Korea, and on and on and on.... Judo is first. wrestling, in all the forms, is second, if that.

Just because in the USA you can run into these crappy little local Judo clubs where the vast majority of the people are not tough, not very competitive, etc... sure as hell does not mean the same for the entire population.

trust me when i say that the time i put in doing judo is up there with the time any top-notch d-1 or higher wrestler has put in.

when you get down to this, without a gi sure the wrestler will have an advantage... put the gi on, and all that changes dramatically.

even when talking about throw for throw.
5/5/10 8:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zrazys
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 102
I know what I was saying and, what I'm meaning is that you aren't going to toss a good wrestler around like you can a BJJ'er. They have everything (except submissions) that a Judoka has. My intention wasn't to slam your effort and, skills, that they were not up to par. Just that you aren't walking over wrestlers like you do BJJ'ers.

And what do the wrestlers in Iran, Russia and, the Eastern Bloc say about them being second status? What would they have to say to your claim that they aren't as good as the guys in the local Judo club? "Oh, those guys in the Judo club, oh my, oh, no, they are in such good shape and, they throw people around! Oh, my" "We can't handle them!"

If that's what you Judokas think..?
5/5/10 9:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JSho
393 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/05/10 9:20 PM
Member Since: 9/19/03
Posts: 4268
Erm Judo is higher status than wrestling in japan and korea, but in the eastern bloc?? nonsense
5/5/10 9:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zrazys
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/05/10 9:59 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 103
deleted
5/5/10 9:56 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zrazys
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 104
KyokushinCatch - z - see my "500-1" post about 6 posts up. that judoka beat wrestlers on a regular basis, even beating a champ under all-in (catch) rules

was more than 30 years ago though




From the wikipedia article:

"It should be noted that the rules of these challenge matches required Tani's opponents to wrestle according to competitive jiujitsu rules, which meant that they had to avoid being forced to submit within a defined period of time. As the concept and practice of submission wrestling was foreign to most European wrestlers during this period, this did offer Tani a tactical advantage in his challenge matches."

5/6/10 6:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zrazys
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 105
It sounds as if Tani was quite good.
5/6/10 6:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zrazys
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/06/10 6:59 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 106
How could wrestling possibly be discussed? Long after BJJ was brought up and, attacked by some guys who made it out that Judo was supreme. What about wrestling, I saidI'm not even figuring in submissions as I have already mentioned. Just try to use your Judo skills to throw, grapple with and, pin a wrestler. Talk all you want about throwing a BJJ'er, but you ain't goona throw a wrestler like that, a wrestler of comperable skill, though. Div. I NCAA tournament, Olympic level. I assume that's the level of Resnick. As I also mentioned, once wrestlers start doing the FILA Grappling thing and, if Randy Couture and, Melanson and, Josh Barnett can get the catch thing off the ground, then we can throw defense and, offense with submission into the picture. They'll then react properly when you take their back. The competition I picture is Resnick, in his gi vs. a comperable wrestler, wearing his singlet, or something similiar with the focus on takedowns, throws and, pins.
5/6/10 10:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JoshuaResnick
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/02
Posts: 12032
Zraz... can you read? there are such things called books, magazines, newspapers, and essays. you should pick a few up and read them, then answer a few questions based on them... i suggest this only because your reading comprehension level seems to be rather poor.

not once did i say a local judoka is more capable than a high level wrestler. i said the opposite-- that if you are using local judokas as your barometer that you are not getting the message. you have absolutely no idea what high level judo is like-- none at all. not even in the most remote of manners.

and, yes, judo's popularity, even through the eastern bloc, is unreal-- even when compared to wrestling. the numbers in all of the eastern bloc nations are impressive for both sports. judo's popularity throughout asia far surpasses wrestling's...
5/7/10 7:47 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zrazys
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 107
And I never said anything about local Judokas being a barometer, you did. Your argument with me is based on your arguement, not mine. Reading comprehension?

I'm saying that a high level wrestler and, a high level Judoka are at least equal. You will not find magazines and, books dealing with how Judokas and, wrestlers should engage one another either. Both sports keep to themselves.

But neither you, nor your fellow Judokas will dominate high level wrestlers. Your training is not better in any way than high level wrestling training. ANd, neither is a wrestlers. You won't dominate.

And Glen, it's not a wrestler try Judo, or a Judoka try wrestling, it's one art vs. the other.

"Thats kinda strange isn't it?"

No, maybe in your insular world, it is, but since MMA has hit the scene and, the cross competition arguement has hit various no-gi grappling tournaments, it's a very interesting concept. Probably not for you guys, though.
5/7/10 7:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zrazys
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 108
So you are not from an insular world, but go out and, fight people from other arts! That's great!

Also, there wasn't a stellar analogy, since we are talking about human beings engaging in hand to hand combat using different grappling styles. The racket sports may be similar in that they both his balls, but the differences are much greater than their similarities. Different rackets, balls, courts, in addition to rules.

Judo and, wrestling are two ways of doing the same thing. They are styles that most people would wonder how about how they do against each other.

You know that your Judo skills are a help when you've engaged in grappling matches with guys from other arts. You've seen how your skills aren't just a martial dance, but can be used and, adapted for grappling against other skills. You are engaging in hand to hand combat and, that's all I asked of any top grappler that seems to think their skills would dominate. He's likely do quite well too. But, I don't think the skills of the top players are such that they would dominate anyone from another sport at similar levels.
5/7/10 7:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JoshuaResnick
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/02
Posts: 12034
Z.. you are so ignorant it is amazing. the vast majority of the top judokas in the USA also wrestled in HS-- though they had almost all been doing judo long before they ever wrestled.. wresting was usually something they did to get a good workout, or for the competition, or to be with friends, etc... point is, you act as if judokas have no idea what wrestling does.

there have also been dozens, i means dozens, of HS state medal winners and NCAA all-americans who had done a very good amount of Judo in their lifetime...

the two sports are not agsint one antoher. depending on the variety of wrestling, such as freestyle, some forms of wrstling have more in common with Judo than other wrestling forms.

mongolian wrestling is much closer to judo that it is to greco. freestyle is closer to judo than it is folk style. heck, even greco is closer to judo than it is folkstyle. and that is just based off of a common sense analysis of the most common, highest scoring techniques in the sports....

but.. NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD. this thread is about the best NEWAZA in the judo world over the last 30 years.

so, please.. why dont you try to use some common sense and, at best, make a thread about whatever this converstaion is in a new thread.
5/7/10 10:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zrazys
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 109
Resnick, you've misread my comments and, don't understand what I'm saying. So forget it.

And, much of this thread has nothing to do with the original post. BJJ, Rorian, etc.

5/21/10 10:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JoshuaResnick
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/02
Posts: 12052
captain... that might be what you think, but i am really sure that i could tool the vast majority of purple to brown belts you know of without using any bit of anything bjj has taught me-- aka the bicep slicer done with the shin.

my experiences in bjj have taught me two things... 1. there are very very few thing that bjj does that are completely different than Judo and 2. the rules of the sport make all the difference in what you do and how and why.

i guarantee you that the majority of the bjj guys you know would get beat in a judo-rules based newaza competition, while those same judokas would still be able to win a decent number of matches against the same people in bjj rules.

the direction you look at things from is what influences what you think.

personally, i will let you get your hooks in. i am a judoka, i don't give points for hooks. make me tap or it all means nothing. meanwhile, when i throw you or pin you it will mean something in either sport.
5/26/10 8:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JSho
393 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/19/03
Posts: 4349
allcloser - 
CaptainSaveAHo - being good at Judo ne waza is like being the smartest retard.

Train BJJ friends.


I hear you, but the thing is that guys truly good at newaza in Judo have beaten BJJers in BJJers' own games many times.

Judoists who compete at high level using their newaza skills are fun to watch,too.

What is your vote?


i'd rather watch them do tachiwaza tho.

many times? kikuta in adcc 2001 and yoshida vs royce, who else? Hironaka beat JJ Machado but i think he is from a BJJ background himself.

Have judoka and bjj players really faced each other a significant number of times in grappling competitions (or are you thinking more mma)?

And to be clear, no current elite judoka could win the bjj mundials in the same way no bjj player could win the judo worlds, noone is that versatile.
5/26/10 8:35 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
TheRealMKL
4 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/15/06
Posts: 335
JSho 
And to be clear, no current elite judoka could win the bjj mundials in the same way no bjj player could win the judo worlds, noone is that versatile.





yet
5/26/10 2:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JoshuaResnick
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/02
Posts: 12063
This is not true. A world level judoka has won the mundials. his name is leonardo leite. his training time in bjj is minimal in comparison to how long he has been doing judo and just watching his newaza you can clearly see the judo influences in his "game."

the only real argument against this can be that naturally, there has to be some level of bjj training for somebody to compete in a given rule set... you cannot compete in something at a high level without a very, very good understanding of the rules and point system. you cannot know the rule and point system to that degree without spending an ample amount of time "training" in the sport.
5/27/10 5:12 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JSho
393 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/19/03
Posts: 4350
Yes, i have referenced him on other threads as the athlete to achieve the most in both sports. Leo has also won the copa do mundo in bjj, his mundials win was a decade ago, has 3 silvers too since then. i am not sure he would have been counted as an elite (top 5/10) judoka in the world in 2000 tho?

He couldn't currently win the mundials imo and although i should have name checked him on this thread too, i was thinking off the top 4/5 guys in a given weight in both sports.
5/27/10 4:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 980
The problem is you are taking things out of context when do not look at judo on a world scale. And judo players (in general) do not spend time fighting off their backs or defending fighting off their backs. THe best BJJ BB who have judo BB do not compete in higher level judo. If you look at all the international competitions and majors in the US like the Senior Nationals, US open. They are no where to found. You mention Roger Gracie who has the best judo skills I have seen at his level. Would love to see him compete in international judo. There is reason they don't.
5/27/10 7:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JoshuaResnick
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/02
Posts: 12064
CSAH...

you are an idiot. please tell me where you get the information that Flavio Canto has ever stated that he has trained in BJJ... In fact, he is the first to say that he has never trained in bjj, that his judo coach just loved newaza. period. has he rolled with bjj people, sure.. why not?

but i have trained in and with bjj guys and wrestlers too... does that mean my judo is not judo?

at what point in time do you discont something and just say "that isnt judo, it is bjj"


the clock choke? triangle from the guard? armlocks from the guard? butterfly sweeps? reverse triangles? leglocks? i learned all of those when i a kid in judo-- and that was far before the UFC came out or anybody ever heard of bjj...

truly, the only submission i had not seen, that would be legal in judo, is the bicep slicer. but you'd be stupid to use it in judo because you give up the osaekomi (pin).

sure bjj has much more advanced guard work overall. but bjj also has much worse top control (osaekomi) overall. sure, judokas dont transition from the osaekomi to submissions often-- because what's the point??? if the guy is close to escaping then we will do it, but the pin is just fine by itself for us.

ive also seen many, many matches in bjj where all that happens the entire match is an osaekomi. looks a lot like judo to me.

mind you, i am a guy who likes to do bjj. it is a fun change of pace from the grueling nature of judo at times. i can't stand the rules and point system, but the newaza is always a fun part of judo for me. and, i am overall quite good at it.

like i said, the simple truth is that without spending some time practicing under the given rules and point stuctures there is almost no way that anybody would be able to just show up and win a major tournament fom one of the sports to another. but, this is far more an issue of rule sets than skill levels.

the Russians who practice judo/sambo might not be great guard work players, but in newaza they will rip your legs and arms off while they laugh at you for trying to do the same to them. are you going to say that the skills they possess are somehow no good becuase they would maybe lose in a bjj rule set tournament?

i have lost in bjj tournaments simply because of the point system and the way the rules are carried out. in my mind i was killing the guys, but in bjj they were winning. the difference? hooks. though they never once came near a submission, points are a totally different thing.

just because you spent someime around some really piss poor newaza judokas does not mean anything. to judge the entire population based on your piss poor experience is garbage. i've known hundreds, to thousands, of judokas in my life whose newaza skills are every bit as good as any purple to brown belt you've ever rolled with in a bjj academy.


Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.