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Kickboxing UnderGround >> Clinch training question


12/31/09 9:21 AM
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IronMonkey
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Do you guys train the clinch with gloves on or without gloves? I see many youtube clips of training in Thailand and often it seems they would do a considerable amount of clinch training without gloves. My training involves both but do tend to be more with glove on. I found I am more technical without the gloves on as I tend to have more control. With the gloves on it seems a lot harder, esp. with bigger and heavier guys. Having said this, why bother clinch training without gloves as in the ring you'll always be wearing gloves?
12/31/09 3:44 PM
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TheBrick
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At my gym guys generally do both. If the have bag gloves that don't have velcro straps then they are used for clinching. If they have gloves with velcro straps then barehands instead, basically just don't want people getting velcro burns all over their face.

Situational:
person A is getting ready for a fight, person B has no fights but enough clinching they can help prepare person A. Person A will then always wear gloves while person B doesn't, just to make person A work a little more.

Sometimes I do this no matter experience if I know the athlete's opponent is a strong clincher???
1/3/10 4:38 PM
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glock4life
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It seems when teaching beginners, the first few times work the clinch without gloves, Then move 'em into gloves.
1/4/10 2:26 PM
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UG Shimada
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you don't get scuffed up as much clinching without gloves or handwraps on. I do agree that you should do it with the gloves on from time to time as well.
1/5/10 11:25 AM
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Ryukyu Damashi
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Most people wear vecro training gloves and that would rip you to shreads by trying to clinch for 30 minutes everyday.
1/5/10 12:29 PM
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UG Shimada
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Ryukyu Damashi - Most people wear vecro training gloves and that would rip you to shreads by trying to clinch for 30 minutes everyday.


yeah, I've been to gyms that clinch exclusively with the velcro gloves on. no fun.
1/5/10 1:12 PM
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Ryukyu Damashi
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^Is the Gym in Thailand?
1/7/10 11:37 PM
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IronMonkey
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I never thought about the burn marks on my neck from velcro gloves till you mentioned it. Good point!

And I like theBrick's use of gloved vs no gloves for fighters with matches coming up. Never thought of that.

But why do the Thai guys seem to exclusively train with no gloves? They can simply use the bag gloves as well to make it more realistic?
1/8/10 11:48 AM
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Khun Kao
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I suspect its due to the sheer amount of training they do.... Keeping gloves on for a min. of 30 minutes clinch training in Thailands heat and humidity probably isn't that practical. Besides, I think they still cover a fair amount of clinch work during Thai pad drills with their trainers.
1/11/10 2:16 PM
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UG Shimada
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Ryukyu Damashi - ^Is the Gym in Thailand?


oh no, that was in the u.s. I never once clinched with gloves on in thailand, except for what little clinching I did in sparring.
1/12/10 9:42 PM
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BJJStudent
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Khun Kao or Ryukyu Damashi,

I was hoping you could help. I was clinching yesterday with one of the trainers. Is the following legal, or is it a grey zone?

Kneeing to the back of the spine? The trainer said in Thai it was legal, but....not so sure on this one at all.

I had tight body lock on him, he repeatedly tried to pry it off by prying/poking/grabbing around my eye sockets?

Punching someone in the stomach during clinch work?

Thanks of any advice, as I am just wondering.
1/12/10 10:51 PM
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Normal MT
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 KK & RD are busy, they told me to respond.

1. Kneeing to the spine would not be possible unless you turned your back, solution= dont turn your back and he wont knee you in the spine. If he is doing it to just be a douchebag then by all means knee him in the knutts.
2. Gouging the eyes isnt too cool, this is a good reason to only clinch this guy wearing gloves. What a dick.
3. While punching to the body isnt as bad as gouging the eyes, it is perfectly legit in a bout.
1/12/10 11:02 PM
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BJJStudent
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thanks, for reponse.

1. I hadn't thought about that, but great suggestion. I was turned into it intertionally, will be aware from now on.

3. gotcha, we only doing clinch training from my perspective at least.

thanks again.
1/13/10 8:25 AM
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Khun Kao
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Thanks to Normal MT for stepping up to plate... ;) Let me clarify...

1. Technically speaking, kneeing someone in the spine is perfectly legit in Thailand. This is not allowed anywhere else, to my knowledge. To make a long story short, the only *illegal* target in Muay Thai is the crotch.

1a. HOWEVER! You must also understand that attacking exposed body parts (i.e. the spine, back of head, knee) with potentially crippling strikes isn't considered "kosher", despite being a technically legal strike/tactic. As my MuayThai coach used phrase it, it's considered "dirty pool".

1b. For instance, strikes such as kneeing the spine, elbow to the base of the neck, and stomping someone's knee are all technically LEGAL strikes/tactics in Muay Thai. The thought process seems to be that if you have properly trained or prepared, you shouldn't get caught in such a compromising position in the first place. As an example, in MuayThai you may only be penalized for a BLATANTLY intentional strike to your opponents groin. Then, and ONLY then, will the fouled fighter be given a timeout. If a strike to the groin occurs during a match and it is deemed accidental, the fight is not stopped... not even to seperate the fighters or issue a warning. If the struck fighter is unable to continue, he loses the fight.

1c. REMEMBER! Most MuayThai fighters participate in the sport as an actual career. It's their livlihood because they lack other opportunities to make that kind of cash doing anything else. So using these potentially career ending strikes will mark you as a "dirty fighter", which will result in one of two things... #1) Anyone who steps into the ring with you will potentially try to maim you first before you can do it to them..... or.... #2) no one will accept fights with you. As you can see, if you're trying to build a career as a fighter to support your family, neither of these 2 options is good.

2. OK, gouging at or sticking of one's fingers in the eyes is illegal and is a total DICK move, ESPECIALLY during clinch training. There are a lot of tactics to break a strong body lock, and some of them aren't exactly gentle, but having to resort to an "eye gouge" is pretty classless.

2a. There is a perfectly legal tactic in MuayThai that I don't see used to often because it is also generally considered to be a dirty tactic (though nowhere near as dirty as kneeing/elbowing someone in the spine). Fighters will use their chin to dig into their opponents eye sockets in the clinch to make them flinch away and create space to work. I distinctly recall Ramon Dekker using this tactic when he fought in Thailand. Like I said, though, its low on the totem pole of things that will earn you a reputation of being a dirty fighter.

2b. If someone (especially a trainer) is resorting to a tactic such as this during training or even sparring, it demonstrates to me a lack of knowledge, skill, and/or control.

3. I can't even begin to tell you how much I *LOVE* it when someone starts punching my body during clinchwork!!!! I FUCKING LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE TRY TO "WORK MY BODY" WITH YOUR PUNCHES IN THE CLINCH!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

3a. In all seriousness, it's much like my point in "2b" above. Someone who resorts to punching in the clinch is demonstrating a lack of knowledge, training, skill, and or understanding on Muay Thai.

3b. Repeat after me: Knees beat Punches.... EVERY.SINGLE.TIME.
1/13/10 8:35 AM
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Khun Kao
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Question...

Was the "kneeing in the spine" situation that was discussed simply a discussion, or was it because someone was kneed in the spine during the training session?

I'd actually like a little more clarification on the situation where the trainer was poking/grabbing around your eye socket. Seriously, from my perspective this is irresponsible. However, was this trainer using this as a teaching device, explaining what he was doing as he did it or something like that? Or were you guys just doing a drill (or sparring) and he just suddenly pulled that move on you with no forewarning?

And again, you should ENCOURAGE people to punch you in the stomach during clinchwork! Invite them to do so! Seriously, I've never been hit with a punch during the clinch that has come close to slowing me down. You barely feel them! But I guarentee that your opponent (or training partner) will most definitely feel your knees!
1/13/10 8:47 AM
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Ryukyu Damashi
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First of all, he needs to keep his fingers away from your eyes. That's bullshit.

Second, if he is being all serious when punching your body when clinching, then he doesn't know what he is doing.

If he is just roughing you up by jabbing and grinding his knuckles in to your stomach and ribs to break up the monotony of a 30 minute clinch session, then that is fine.

Here is a video I took of Attachai doing the exact thing to Neuropol while clinching at Fairtex in 2007.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sei1haw9O8
1/13/10 9:06 AM
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Khun Kao
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1/13/10 9:18 AM
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BJJStudent
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thanks to Normal MT, Khun Kao and Ryukyu Damashi for your responses. Extremely detailed and thorough and will defintely use as a reference in the future.

For the eye grinding/poking, I had a tight bodylock on him near the ropes. We were drilling rounds only with the clinch, he never teaches any technique, just trains. He repeatedly tried to pry my face off by doing, this, and I kept adjusting and burying my head so he couldn't do this. The normal trainer today I work confirmed that it was illegal and cheating to use eye gouging type stuff.

One other iffy thing was he was also began using inside kicks to my knee towards the end of training with no shin pads on and his shins hurt are very tough.
1/13/10 9:27 AM
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BJJStudent
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for the knee in the spine, he turned me into off when he rotated when I had him against the ropes later. It was several times not just once that it was done. The new trainer today said like you said it's legal in muay thai.
1/13/10 10:05 AM
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Khun Kao
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Edited: 01/13/10 10:06 AM
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That's what I was suspecting. It sounds like the trainer you were working with has 2 issues... lack of proper knowledge/training... and an ego problem. I've noted this in other people I've trained with.

It's possible that he's been trained in such a way that no one has ever bothered to explain to him that these cheap shots (eye gouges, knees to the spine, etc) are considered very bad etiquette.

But I have experience with some people who, despite being told REPEATEDLY that these types of moves are illegal or just "bad manners", will continue to employ these tactics. It's usually because said person could not be bothered with learning material that didn't interest them at the time, so when they run into someone who is able to use techniques they can't readily counter, they resort to cheap-ass and potentially damaging moves just to "save face".

As far as the kicks to the inside of the knee... we used to refer to that as the "bitch kick". It's a completely legal technique and is not considered bad form. However, we began to call it the "bitch kick" because some people used it as a "crutch". Rather than learn/practice a variety of techniques to start off a combination, they chose the easiest route. The "bitch kick" is an exceedingly easy technique to pull off, and because its so fast its often hard for less-experienced students/fighters to nullify. So they end up getting caught with it a lot and wind up with black and blue knees and inner thighs.

Once you develop and "eye" for it, you'll be able to block it easily. Basically, you jam your knee into it a few times and see how long he's willing to keep it up. LOL.

Out of curiosity, does he also throw Push Kicks to the face? That is another technique that is considered "bad form" in training. It's reserved for actual matches. Push kicking someone in the face is considered an insult, and you simply do NOT do that to your training partners.

The symbolism of push kicking someone in the face is that you are telling them that they are lower than the dirt on the bottom of your foot.
1/13/10 10:09 AM
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Normal MT
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 : )  OK BJJStudent this is why KK is the Mod here. I call this guy a dick and a douche, and KK and RD can give you a 5 minute detailed disertation, with video I might add, on why this guy is such a dick & a douchebag.
1/13/10 10:11 PM
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BJJStudent
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normal MT,

no man, I really appreciate your information. No matter what, getting a explanation in english from a qualified instructor, such as yourself, is very helpful, as I am just trying to learn this stuff.

Khun Kao,

Yes he did throw push kicks and high as you mentioned, but I was able to evade/deflect/parry those attempts at least. The bitch kick sucks. At this point, I have a very hard time blocking the fasters kicks and usually end up chasing them with my hands and trying to catch them.

Thanks again for your detailed and well thought out response.
1/22/10 8:05 AM
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TigerMuayThai
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1/22/10 10:44 AM
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Khun Kao
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Gotta admit that I liked the idea of tying the students together during clinchwork.... I could use that
1/22/10 3:54 PM
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Normal MT
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Khun Kao - Gotta admit that I liked the idea of tying the students together during clinchwork.... I could use that

I agree with KK tieing them together. In the past I "scored" some Huge Rubber bands (3 foot long) from my old job and I keep one in my backpack whenever I go to train. Every so often I get a new student that I need to use it on, in that the guy may change his stance too much or will either not move and/or move around too much, or too far away from me.
So I calm his ass down by wrapping the rubberband around his lead foot and then wrapping it around my lead foot.
He gets too squirrley I just yank my lead foot and pull him back closer to me. I try to have him stay at least within punching range and hold pads for his rear kicks as well.

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