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HolyGround >> book of eli


8/13/10 12:17 PM
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770mdm
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 Christianity is all about Jesus Christ. All the rest are just peripheral to him.

That's the problem:  Deut: 13
8/13/10 12:17 PM
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770mdm
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 asdfasdf
8/14/10 10:18 AM
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Grakman
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Edited: 08/14/10 10:21 AM
Member Since: 6/21/08
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 770,
What you're saying is not offensive to me. I'm more than familar with the arguments / points you've made. I don't take questions / debates like this personally. I enjoy theology and was answering your questions from what would be a Christian's point of view.  I know if can be frustrating for Jewish people when Christians say things about Jesus as Messiah.  It seems like Christians discarded what Jews themselves said about the Torah and the Messiah and co-opted the Jewish faith. I suppose in some sense they did.

 Christians believe Jesus IS God. If Jesus is God  they don't see worshiping Jesus as idolatry.
 
8/14/10 11:55 PM
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770mdm
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I like being on the same page.  Well okay you go your way I go mine sort of thing knowing there is a respect there.  But the arguments I have seem, to me, monotonous because my questions just haven't been answered properly, or selfishly to my satisfaction.   There's a point where Christians pull the Jesus is Gd statement and it just undermines the quality of the debate.  Your ace in the hole just is never explained beyond these blanket statements.  

The Book of Eli movie just didn't say anything about WHY the bible is so valuable the movie just assumed it was.  I was looking for scripture and biblical politics.  I was looking for them to display a chaotic society that gets pulled together by biblical ideals.  Especially since the NT doesn't deal with politics like the OT as much or as direct.  Not that I've read the NT so I could be wrong.  Anyway the OT deals with pulling chaotic society together because it did that already previously First.  

Now this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.  Here's my basic gripe with the move and all of a sudden the "Jesus is G-d" thing comes out and I'm like...Well?..???
8/15/10 1:37 PM
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Grakman
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I saw n in the movie the implication that society fell and the apocalypse came (not the Biblical one but the manmade kind) because the people had turned away from God, despite blaming the destruction of the world on God / religion. The rescue of the last surviving Bible was a testament that God was real, was still present, and still active in the world.

The leader of the gang had water, electricity, amenities for himself and that's all he cared about.  He seemed to believe the Bible was a magic book whose words would give him power over people. That's why he was looking for it; it also explains why he would get upset when they would bring him the wrong books, as he felt his control was tenuous at best and he felt the Bible would give him the final edge and keep him in power til his death.

Now, the end of the movie in which they placed the Bible on a shelf with the other holy books seemed to me to be a symbolic move to make the movie politically correct. It's almost like it was added as an after thought, in my opinion.

As to your remarks that the answers are not satisfying, I don't know what to tell you. You aren't the only one, obviously, who isn't happy with those answers. Christianty accepts Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, but not just for the Jews only but for the whole world.

8/16/10 12:44 PM
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770mdm
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Edited: 08/16/10 4:10 PM
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Now that speaks to me.  Thank you.

I would say that there was a period of Chaos in the Bible.  Before the Flood.  It would have been nice to see the movie go in the direction of order after chaos by analogy of what happened in the Bible.  That would bring the Bible into the being of not what happened but what always happens and how the Bible can actually give order after chaos.  How empowering righteousness is and how much healthier it is for society over self-indulgence, like during the time of the Tower of Bable.  

Or also maybe when the Israelites were in Egypt before the Exodus and they Knew of G-d but lost their way in a foreign land.  There was an acknowledgement of G-d then but there was no embodying of righteousness.  At that point you'd see the emergence of G-d from within the people and law and order take shape.  Judaism would say inspired by a prophet or massiah but not because of him.  

The movies perspective is somewhat different.  It's a people in their own land but not consumed with G-d in any way but survival which again is like the time before the flood or after the flood for that matter.    

Maybe if the movie was based on Jesus's teachings then how his perspective would steer the communities of chaos or lawlessness into what Christianity wants in a society.  But they left all that alone.






 
2/21/11 12:24 AM
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truthisalive
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770mdm - How is Christianity the progression of G-d's plan?  What is the next step that the Torah doesn't address?  And how is Christianity the fulfillment of Judaism?  Where does Judaism stop and Christianity start?  






I will answer all over your above posted questions. Here you go...


Romans 3
God’s Faithfulness
1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”


But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!





What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:




“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”




Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.





But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
2/21/11 12:29 AM
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truthisalive
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Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.




5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.




9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.



12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.




14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,[g] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Present Suffering and Future Glory



18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.



22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.



26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.



28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
More Than Conquerors


31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[j]


37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2/21/11 12:29 AM
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truthisalive
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Edited: 02/21/11 12:30 AM
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double post.
2/21/11 11:37 PM
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TheStewedOwl
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Just saw it, as Dan Inosanto choreographed the stick scenes.

SPOILER FOLLOWS:











Not bad, would be worth seeing again (maybe) to see how many clues you are given that he is blind - i.e., he never shoots until they fire first so he can aim at the sound.

I think the ending should have been cut short with his death, not with the girl taking up his weapons which was kind of ludicrous.
2/22/11 1:01 AM
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truthisalive
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question is was it a nuclear war(destroying ozone) or did the sun increase in strength?
2/22/11 10:56 AM
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Grakman
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 Owl, I agree. I saw it in hindsight through a spiritual lens that God has protected Eli on his 30-year journey to deliver the Bible to those who could ensure it's continued existence. Once that task was completed, there was no more need for that type of supernatural strength / fighting ability, ergo there was no need to have her walking out like she is going to go take over the world. I was also a bit disappointed that they had the Koran and the Tanakh on the shelf; it seemed an obvious bone toss to PC rather than part of the actual story line. After all, it even says in the movie that all the Bibles were destroyed by the people, and Eli's is the last remaining Bible on the earth. Are we to understand that all the copes of the Koran and Tanakh were destroyed too?

truth, I think there was a war because they mention that the Bible was destroyed because the people saw it as part of the reason for the great  destruction. But I'm not sure. Thoughts?
3/7/11 2:13 PM
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gregbrady
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ending was dumb but a great movie otherwise.

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