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UnderGround Forums >> Let's hear it for K-1 level striking!


1/31/10 11:53 PM
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whistleblower
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bigtoehold - And the bottom line is this. Overall, who would you pick - from any other combat sport in the world - to actually beat the likes of Schilt, Hari, Bonjasky, Alistair, Aerts, Teixeira, and Le Banner straight-up in a striking contest, most of the time? If you can't come up with anyone - then again, what exactly is the "MYTH OF K-1 LEVEL STRIKING"?


prime bob sapp =)

Actually, Bob Sapp would be the perfect example AGAINST the "most of the time" standard - because after his two huge wins over Hoost, Sapp himself was reduced to a punching bag in K-1. He couldn't even pick up a single meaningful win in K-1 after that, over any of K-1's top contenders. (And got wrecked by Cro Cop and Sefo.)

Hell, Sapp's best win after the Hoost fights might have been Kimo (LOL - and even that was with assistance).

So Sapp would be the quintessential case-in-point of someone who enjoyed isolated moments of success in K-1 - but who could not sustain any kind of consistent top-level success at all (either in K-1 or MMA, for that matter) - where his two wins over Hoost turned out to be extreme aberrations overall.
1/31/10 11:53 PM
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Wasa-B
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Dogmeat 1 - Melvin's record in K-1 and other higher level kickboxing promotions is only 9-8. Futhermore he was knocked out cold in 6 out of 8 of those losses, usually in the first round. Melvin has shown that he has the skills and power to knockout nearly anyone but that his weak chin and mental game cause him to lose nearly as much as he wins.

all this loss shows is that his flaws are just as exploitable in MMA as they are in kickboxing.


Hmm.....this seems to be the most footnote worthy post of the thread.
1/31/10 11:58 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 02/01/10 12:00 AM
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 "one of orcus' other pet agendas, like Manhoef or K-1 in general."

lol @ this. What exactly is my "agenda" against Manhoef? My god, you are a tiresome bitch, can you discuss anything with anyone without insisting they have an "agenda"?

All I ever said about Manhoef was he was not and never would be a top MMA guy, and that Anderson would kill him standing. The fact that Robbie Lawler ate some leg kicks and ended him with one punch supports my belief as being pretty well-founded.

"
Yup."

What are we supposed to be seeing in those stats? That Melvin's "absolutely beat the LIVING SHIT" out of Lawler amounts to 11 hard leg kicks, and 12 punches that had no visible effect, and Lawler's very first (and only) punch put him into a coma? Well, you've certainly convinced me that K-1reigns supreme.
 
1/31/10 11:58 PM
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Squatdog
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What rocked him? A leg kick? A punch to his arm?


A dozen power shots. The ten hard kicks which repeatedly knocked Lawler's leg into the air and left him hobbling would have hurt too.

Prior to the KO punch, Lawler had not been flailing at air and falling all over himself with missed punches as Fedor had; in fact it was obvious to anyone that he was waiting for the best moment. Therefore a logical person would see one as more of a sharpshooter and the other as a blindfolded child pitching darts at a board and maybe one of them hits a bullseye.


My God, this trolling...
2/1/10 12:03 AM
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DrewBarrymoreFan
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Whao...

Whistleblower owning Orcus !

Orcus said Fedor KO against AA was lucky, but Lawler Ko over Manhoef was a perfect gameplan! Nice find , whistleblower!
2/1/10 12:05 AM
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orcus
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 "A dozen power shots. The ten hard kicks which repeatedly knocked Lawler's leg into the air and left him hobbling would have hurt too."

I guess we have different definitions of "rocked". I don't use it to mean limping from leg kicks or getting punched in the arms.

"
My God, this trolling..."

Which part is factually incorrect?

Who would YOU logically assume is more "lucky"?:

1) The kid who walks up to the three-point line and sinks it, nothing but net, on his first try. (He has also done this on many other occasions)

2) The kid who shoots a dozen airballs and then sinks one? (He only made the shot once before in his life, years ago)

lol @ the fucking STRETCHING required to turn thinking #2 was "luck" into an "agenda"! You guys are hilarious. I may be wrong, but it's perfectly logical to think what I think and it doesn't require some sinister plan.
2/1/10 12:11 AM
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Squatdog
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1) The kid who walks up to the three-point line and sinks it, nothing but net, on his first try. (He has also done this on many other occasions)

2) The kid who shoots a dozen airballs and then sinks one? (He only made the shot once before in his life, years ago)


3) The kid who gets totally dominated and controlled in embarrassingly one-sided fashion (to the point where they can't take a SINGLE shot at the net) then miraculously pulls a three-pointer from halfway out of his ass to win the game.

Lawler is that kid.
2/1/10 12:14 AM
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Squatdog
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To be fair, Sapp cheated his ass off in both fights with holding and hitting.
2/1/10 12:17 AM
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orcus
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Squatdog - 
lol, you don't think Lawler was throwing his own legs up in an attempt to "roll with" the kicks?


LMFAO!!!!



 Robbie's training partner on the other thread: " It's not the conventional check, but when Robbie's leg was flying up in the air... Robbie was making his leg go with the kick to take off some of the steam. He's done it in training and fights in the past, occasionally, with super strong leg kickers."
2/1/10 12:18 AM
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super chin
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Dogmeat 1 - Melvin's record in K-1 and other higher level kickboxing promotions is only 9-8. Futhermore he was knocked out cold in 6 out of 8 of those losses, usually in the first round. Melvin has shown that he has the skills and power to knockout nearly anyone but that his weak chin and mental game cause him to lose nearly as much as he wins.

all this loss shows is that his flaws are just as exploitable in MMA as they are in kickboxing.


jesus christ. a sensible post on the ug. the end times are nigh.
2/1/10 12:20 AM
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super chin
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and sigh at orcus. fedor is a blindfolded kid throwing darts at a board? really?

as whistleblower said, you really are the king of double standards and your hyperbole is trolling plain and simple.
2/1/10 12:26 AM
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Squatdog
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orcus - 
 Robbie's training partner on the other thread: " It's not the conventional check, but when Robbie's leg was flying up in the air... Robbie was making his leg go with the kick to take off some of the steam. He's done it in training and fights in the past, occasionally, with super strong leg kickers."


So instead of checking it on his knee, he was LETTING Manhoef kick his injured leg and knock it up into the air?

LOL!
2/1/10 12:28 AM
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The James
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Dogmeat 1 - Melvin's record in K-1 and other higher level kickboxing promotions is only 9-8. Futhermore he was knocked out cold in 6 out of 8 of those losses, usually in the first round. Melvin has shown that he has the skills and power to knockout nearly anyone but that his weak chin and mental game cause him to lose nearly as much as he wins.

all this loss shows is that his flaws are just as exploitable in MMA as they are in kickboxing.

 Fucking THIS.

Melvin ManBearPig was never some mythical, phenomenal striker, he was just a really aggressive fighter with a lot of power. He's always had holes in his defense, its just a matter of whether or not guys were able to weather the storm and not shit themselves as soon as Mel starts throwing. 

Anywho...I just watched the show back on my DVR after being there live, and one thing that didn't seem to translate as well as I thought it would was just how freaking LOUD the arena was when Robbie landed that punch and ManBearPig hit the ground. It was deafening, everyone came out of their seats.
2/1/10 12:29 AM
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whistleblower
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orcus - 1) Prior to the KO punch, Lawler had not been flailing at air and falling all over himself with missed punches as Fedor had

Yeah, you're right - instead of just missing punches like Fedor did, Lawler was getting his leg kicked off and was actually getting hurt and sustaining damage - unlike Fedor had. (Where the only blow that Arlovski ever even landed that hit flush was the push-kick to the body - which drove Fedor back, but did not hurt him at all - and immediately upon which, Fedor then KTFO'd him a couple of seconds later.)

So yeah, "Prior to the KO punch," Lawler sure was giving a more creditable and less embarrassing performance than Fedor had. Right.
orcus - in fact it was obvious to anyone that he was waiting for the best moment.

LOL.

Yeah, but Fedor WASN'T "waiting for the best moment," right? And instead, just got "lucky." Funny how that works.

But please explain for all of us who are missing it, how it was so "obvious" why Lawler's punch - after getting OWNED even far more definitively than Fedor was in the stand-up - was any more a case of deliberately, skillfully "waiting for the best moment" - and not just getting "lucky" (like you claimed Fedor did).
orcus - Therefore a logical person would see one as more of a sharpshooter and the other as a blindfolded child pitching darts at a board and maybe one of them hits a bullseye.

LOL.

So according to orcus - even though both guys equivalently threw sudden one-punch KO's after getting outpointed in the stand-up (and Lawler FAR more so than Fedor):

Lawler = "sharpshooter"

While Fedor = "blindfolded child"

Is anyone surprised?
2/1/10 12:36 AM
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super chin
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^

orcus gets really defensive when you actually remember things he has posted. it interferes with his ability to effectively push his ridiculous positions on the short memories of the new fans.
2/1/10 12:40 AM
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whistleblower
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Herring In A Fur Coat - The myth of "K-1 level striking" is that anyone who's had a modicum of success in K-1 is going to destroy any MMA fighter standing in an MMA fight. Anyone who's claimed that Anderson Silva would be shooting for takedowns in a hypothetical fight with Manhoef, or anyone who thinks that Overeem's success in K-1 has any bearing on his MMA career, is buying into this myth. It really wasn't a FRAT-worthy statement.

Oh, so then you DON'T disagree with the specific notion that K-1 in reality has most of the best kickboxers in the world - the best of whom would generally be favored to beat everyone else in the world in a striking fight, most of the time. And don't think that that's a "myth" at all.

Great, no FRAT's needed then. Glad we could agree.
2/1/10 12:59 AM
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orcus
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Edited: 02/01/10 12:59 AM
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 "as whistleblower said, you really are the king of double standards and your hyperbole is trolling plain and simple."

I'm the king of double standards, huh? What about the many posters here, including on this very thread, sucking Fedor's dick for the punch that Arlovski literally jumped into, after missing wildly the previous 3 minutes, while saying Lawler got lucky with the only punch he bothered to throw? Funny how that dumb cunt isn't educating the poor n00bs on this forum to beware of THOSE guys' "double standards".
 
2/1/10 1:08 AM
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Herring In A Fur Coat
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Edited: 02/01/10 1:08 AM
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FightMatrix.com, MMA Rankings
whistleblower - 
Herring In A Fur Coat - The myth of "K-1 level striking" is that anyone who's had a modicum of success in K-1 is going to destroy any MMA fighter standing in an MMA fight. Anyone who's claimed that Anderson Silva would be shooting for takedowns in a hypothetical fight with Manhoef, or anyone who thinks that Overeem's success in K-1 has any bearing on his MMA career, is buying into this myth. It really wasn't a FRAT-worthy statement.

Oh, so then you DON'T disagree with the specific notion that K-1 in reality has most of the best kickboxers in the world - the best of whom would generally be favored to beat everyone else in the world in a striking fight, most of the time. And don't think that that's a "myth" at all.

Great, no FRAT's needed then. Glad we could agree.

 Yeah K-1 is pretty much the pinnacle of HW kickboxing.   Today's HW kickboxing is the sport with a very shallow talent pool.  There are many 185 through HW MMA strikers who would do well in K-1 if they dedicated themselves to striking only.  It shouldn't come as such a surprise when Lawler KO's Manhoef or Overeem KO's Hari.  The MYTH is that there is a huge, unsurmisable talent gap between top-level MMA strikers and K-1 kickboxers. 
2/1/10 1:08 AM
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smoogy
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WB vs. orcus is about as competitve a "rivalry" as Travis Fulton vs. Rory Prazak. It's almost as if orcus enjoys being son'd every time
2/1/10 1:42 AM
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super chin
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orcus -  "as whistleblower said, you really are the king of double standards and your hyperbole is trolling plain and simple."

I'm the king of double standards, huh? What about the many posters here, including on this very thread, sucking Fedor's dick for the punch that Arlovski literally jumped into, after missing wildly the previous 3 minutes, while saying Lawler got lucky with the only punch he bothered to throw? Funny how that dumb cunt isn't educating the poor n00bs on this forum to beware of THOSE guys' "double standards".
 


aww, do you feel picked on now? whoever those guys are that you're referring to, they aren't so consistent in their agenda, so inelegant in their arguments that they constantly raise the ire of anyone with even a shred of intellectual honesty. the squeaky wheel gets the grease. i for one don't think lawler's punch was "lucky", but i do think he was getting owned in the standup before the one shot he had at winning on the feet paid off. but you really aren't worth debating, because you change the rules based on what your desired conclusion is. and if you weren't so annoyingly persistent with your agenda driven rhetoric, i'd attempt to ignore you all together.
2/1/10 1:46 AM
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orcus
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 "aww, do you feel picked on now?"

No, I just think it's funny.

lol @ how you jerkoffs are incapable of discussing ANYTHING, EVER, without accusing the other person of having an agenda. Do you guys do this in real life every time someone has a different opinion than you do? You must be real popular.
2/1/10 1:56 AM
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super chin
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no, i have plenty of disagreements with people i think are coming from an honest place. we may really go at it, but i usually find the experience rewarding and enlightening and i'm open to being wrong. and i'm much more pleasant in real life i'd imagine, as the internet, as you well know, is serious business.

but i can't really have an honest debate with you, because it's like arguing with karl rove. pointless and everyone looks worse for it.

and if you really don't think there are posters on this site who, for whatever reason, have an agenda, then there are a dozen threads i'd point you to.

many you started. but how about anything manhoefkosanderson started...he was pretty much anti-ufc. anytime i see you talk, i know there's a good chance it's somehow going to come back to you hating fedor. there are the zuffa fanatics who post gems like the one on here today "ufc replay better than strikeforce."

sorry if i can't believe that to be an honest opinion. i suppose i could write people off as trolls, but either way their opinions clutter this board. so are you just trolling? because you can't really take half the shit you say seriously, can you? comparing fedor to a blindfolded kids throwing darts and robbie lawler to a sharpshooter?
2/1/10 2:10 AM
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threestars35
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orcus -  "Please watch Kid Yamamoto vs Zambidis, or Igor Vov's k1 fight for an example of this."

There is a reason K-1 MAX is called K-1 MAX and not K-1 -- it's a totally different talent pool and much higher level of skill. I don't see all the competitors in the MAX GP going down every time they get touched, I never saw Masato get stopped in seconds by an ugly MMA-style bumrush as Badr did to Schilt in their first fight.

lol @ bringing up Igor. Yeah, a 6'5" guy running and throwing leg kicks all night against a 5'8" brawler 10 years ago really closes the book on the subject.

"cries about everything other than Zuffa-produced American MMA"

I'll take that with a grain of salt from the guy who sucks the dick of everything other than Zuffa-produced American MMA.

"Are you suggesting that Robbie Lawler doesn't have extremely heavy hands for a middleweight? Being susceptible to a Robbie Lawler KO = questionable chin? "

He has heavy hands, sure. However, I can't think of anyone else who was put into a coma by one punch from him. Also, you're missing the point that when Melvin's chin has been questioned before, the response has always been "lol that's what happens when a 250lb K-1 level striker tags you, no one in MMA of Melvin's size is going to do that; lol he KO'd Mark Hunt what do you think he'd do to some 185lb MMA scrub?"

The fact is that Lawler is tough and heavy-handed but is nowhere close to one of the best "strikers" in MMA. He nearly killed Manhoef and, other than his leg, was completely fine despite all the scary looking punches and bodykicks Melvin was throwing -- and it has to be remembered that he WAS stopped by leg kicks the only other time he fought someone who threw them, so doing damage with them is not some incredible endorsement of Manhoef's deadly striking. Lawler did exactly what he did to Ninja -- cover up and wait for an opening. Would have worked beautifully if he could defend leg kicks; as it is, it got dicey but he still won the fight with one of the only punches he bothered throwing.

"Im willing to take Vitor against Anderson "

Done! It's funny though, both our bets have been fights I could see going either way. I'm definitely more confident about Anderson winning than I was Sherk, though. 30 days?






Dida scored series of hard shots and one chin shot on the great Buakaw. If it happened in MMA Buakaw would have KTFO, does it make Dida a better striker than Buakaw? NO
2/1/10 2:14 AM
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whistleblower
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Edited: 02/01/10 2:19 AM
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Orcus, didn't you claim (repeatedly) that Arlovski had shown a higher level of technical striking ability than Fedor - except that Arlovski just ended up carelessly being "caught" by a "lucky punch" from Fedor?

Well if Arlovski had shown such clear technical superiority over Fedor (according to you) - then what about Manhoef over Lawler? Especially since Manhoef actually effectively hurt and damaged Lawler FAR more definitively than Arlovski ever did to Fedor (who, while outpointed, was never really hurt or damaged at all).

So if Fedor only won because of a "lucky punch" - then by that same standard, so did Lawler. (And very arguably even more so, since Lawler was certainly being outstruck even more decisively and impactfully up to that point.)

But if instead, Lawler's one-punch KO was really skill, where he was just "waiting for the best moment" (as you put it) - then so too was Fedor's.

I would think that if one person feels one way about one KO (i.e., whether it was skill or luck) - then he should almost necessarily, consistently feel the same, or similar, way about the other KO as well. (If he were actually applying the same consistent standard, of course.)

Except for some reason, according to you, when Lawler did it - he was a "sharpshooter." While, when Fedor did it, too - he was a "blindfolded child."

Yes, orcus. No double standards there at all. It's everybody else who's just imagining your own self-contradictions.
2/1/10 2:40 AM
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orcus
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 "i know there's a good chance it's somehow going to come back to you hating fedor"

It's weird how I have no problem making clear my dislike of some fighters, including another p4p contender in BJ Penn, going so far as to say I can't stand him and hope he loses his fights, but for others like Fedor I like to pretend that I am a fan while plotting to convince anonymous morons on a message board to hate him. I wish the geniuses like you and whistleblower and Skarhead, who know my every thought, would enlighten me as to why that is.


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