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UnderGround Forums >> Let's hear it for K-1 level striking!


2/1/10 2:49 AM
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super chin
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yes, a fan would regularly compare a fighter's clean ko of a top contender to a blindfolded kid throwing darts. and claim that a fight in which that fighter took no real damage standing somehow showed technically inferior striking.

then go ahead and apply the exact opposite standard to a situation where one fighter actually was getting lit up on his feet before landing a single knockout punch.

you're the only poster i've seen on here who has been called out by name for hating a particular fighter. no one you named started that thread or others like it. people just notice it because it's practically your calling card.
2/1/10 2:57 AM
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flip_guard
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I called this fight exactly. Nobody gave Lawler a chance but I had a gut feeling that Robbie will get schooled as expected and then lands a bomb while Melvin forgets defence. Like I said, Manhoef have been Ko'd before and Lawler has a lot of power to make it happen.
2/1/10 2:58 AM
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super chin
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^

well good call. it was a scary plan to enact i'm sure, but it paid off.
2/1/10 3:24 AM
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whistleblower
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orcus - "i know there's a good chance it's somehow going to come back to you hating fedor"

It's weird how I have no problem making clear my dislike of some fighters, including another p4p contender in BJ Penn, going so far as to say I can't stand him and hope he loses his fights, but for others like Fedor I like to pretend that I am a fan while plotting to convince anonymous morons on a message board to hate him. I wish the geniuses like you and whistleblower and Skarhead, who know my every thought, would enlighten me as to why that is.

When someone has to constantly STRAIN - to the most extreme and even absurdly twisted lengths - to even possibly, obsessively, nitpick and detract from Fedor every chance he gets, it is virtually impossible to perceive him as a "fan."

Hell, right after Fedor's spectacular annihilation of Sylvia, you know what your reaction was?

While everyone else was rightfully awed - according to you, one of the conclusions to take from that fight was how Fedor LACKED punching power. Yes, that's right. The spin that you - and literally ONLY you could even possibly, remotely come up with - was that this fight actually further exposed a weakness on Fedor's part, because he needed to use way too many punches to finally get Sylvia down, which is why he was unable to finish Sylvia any sooner. (Where Sylvia only "wilted slowly" - your exact words, btw - because Fedor just did not have enough power behind his punches.)

Yes, orcus, that would be the natural, sincere, and objective reaction of any true "fan."

This would be like me claiming here now that I am an orcus fan. Hey, I have never actually outright said that I'm not a fan of yours, right? Well, you know what - I will say right now that I am really a big fan of yours, orcus. I root for you in almost every thread you post, and when I counter you, it is only out of respect and appreciation for your posts, and a sincere desire to make sure that you are understood more clearly and correctly. I can honestly say that I am as big a "fan" of yours as you are of Fedor's. You must believe me, right? How could you not? After all, I do say so myself. (And I have never expressly, specifically said otherwise.)

Signed,
whistleblower, president of the orcus "fan" club
2/1/10 3:33 AM
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Marzz
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There are alot of guys here who said Melvin would wreck Anderson. Their argument was that Anderson was never a top muay thai guy while Melvin competes in K-1 and is, therefore, a better mma striker.

They were wrong obviously. For those saying K-1 is different than mma, that's exactly the point. I don't know how many posts I've read that say, "Could so and so stand with top K1 guys like Overeem has?" or "Could Anderson be competetive in K1 like Melvin?". It's irrelevant. It's a different game. Could Murillo Bustamante win a silver medal in wrestling? And yet he took down Lindland. Diferent game.
2/1/10 5:50 AM
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Diego stole my name
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Melvin is simply too small

His walk around weight is the same as Thiago Alves

There were a lot of openings when Lawler was covering up for a headkick or knees to the face but Melvin would need to grow a few inches to make it work
2/1/10 6:49 AM
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redeye2000
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orcus trolling goes into another dimension.

please tell me obi-wan how did laywer outstruck the k-1 level fighter melvin?

the only way lawyer won was walking backwards the whole time. if lawyer was so secure about his striking why didnt he stand toe to toe in the first place? who had his back against the fence?

melvin or lawyer?

so far i have not seen anything in this fight that made lawyer a better striker then manhoef except for that 1 hit ko lol

lets otherwise reverse it for you orcus, with your loverboy anderson silva.

anderson silva is outstriking lawyer the whole time. then lawyer comes from nowhere with the hook and KO anderson. does this make lawyer the better striker then too?

ends rant. defeats orcus in another battle of words.
2/1/10 1:31 PM
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Wasa-B
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Wasa-B - 
Dogmeat 1 - Melvin's record in K-1 and other higher level kickboxing promotions is only 9-8. Futhermore he was knocked out cold in 6 out of 8 of those losses, usually in the first round. Melvin has shown that he has the skills and power to knockout nearly anyone but that his weak chin and mental game cause him to lose nearly as much as he wins.

all this loss shows is that his flaws are just as exploitable in MMA as they are in kickboxing.


Hmm.....this seems to be the most footnote worthy post of the thread.


Again for all to note.

In addition, Orcus, i wouldnt say you have no legit points in this scenario but Fedor being the blinded dart throwing kid and Lawler the sharpshooter? Come on, man.

I do think its worth noting though that Lawler is def much more of a strategic/patient counter striker than the bralwer he used to be.

But have to agree with WB, Manhoef was in fact, schooling and more importantly hurting Lawler where AA was outpointing Fedor,

Both AA and Manhoef then to use Roach's words got overzealous and left themselves vulnerable and in the dangerous spot of being in Fedor and Lawlers range.
2/1/10 1:40 PM
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Wasa-B
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btw, orcus to be fair, there is a freeze shot of lawlers hook on the official bout thread and lawler looks like hes looking at the same spot as fedor was when they both made contact with the guys they KTFO.
2/1/10 2:12 PM
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orcus
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  ""There are alot of guys here who said Melvin would wreck Anderson. Their argument was that Anderson was never a top muay thai guy while Melvin competes in K-1 and is, therefore, a better mma striker"

Exactly. That's what these butthurt dorks insist on overlooking. They pretend that this thread isn't a DIRECT RESPONSE to the numerous claims that "No fucking way could Anderson stand with Melvin" and "No fucking way could [prime] Chuck stand with Melvin".

"btw, orcus to be fair, there is a freeze shot of lawlers hook on the official bout thread and lawler looks like hes looking at the same spot as fedor was when they both made contact with the guys they KTFO."

You are quite correct. So I'll have to ask again, why is it that the same Champions of Accuracy, Truth, and Justice are not foaming at the mouth and hammering on the keyboards to attack the NUMEROUS people here on numerous threads that called Lawler's punch "lucky"? Especially since, as I pointed out, there is more support for Lawler's punch being 100% calculated than for Fedor's (Lawler having an entire career based on finishing fights standing, Lawler emulating to a T the same wait-for-an-opening strategy he used against Ninja, Lawler holding back his punches the entire fight until that moment).

"
anderson silva is outstriking lawyer the whole time. then lawyer comes from nowhere with the hook and KO anderson. does this make lawyer the better striker then too?"

Two things: 1) I'm not sure why you said "too". Please quote the post where I said Lawler was a better striker than Manhoef. 2) It all depends on what you consider "better striking". Is the better striker the guy whose combinations look prettier? The guy who lands more strikes? Or the guy who destroys the other with strikes? Who the better striker is depends on how you answer that question, and I assume we all answer it differently.


"
Fedor being the blinded dart throwing kid and Lawler the sharpshooter? Come on, man."

Ha, it's an analogy. You don't think Fedor is known for just winging them out there, not especially caring how or where they connect? Half the time it seems he uses punches at least as much to get into clinch range as he does to try to KO the guy, if not more since he generally prefers to win his fights on the ground.


Lawler, known throughout his career for being a KO puncher, waited patiently for four minutes, not throwing a punch, and then threw a single dead-on KO counter. Fedor missed wildly, literally stumbling over himself after missing by a good foot, for three minutes, then landed the first KO punch of his entire career as his opponent literally jumped into the same punch he had already thrown numerous times. If you guys are seriously trying to claim the two situations are exactly the same and only a contemptible, "agenda"-driven double standard could possibly view them differently, then I don't know what to tell you.

2/1/10 2:32 PM
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Matt Pena
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I'm not Robbie's training partner... I'm his coach! There was not one point in the night that Robbie received help walking, so to say he couldn't walk just isn't true. Of course it was sore, who's leg wouldn't have been? But we kept icing it, rolling it out on a foam roller, and giving it laser treatment and his leg responded very quickly. Yesterday he was on an exercise bike for several 20 minute sessions (I wouldn't do that now... lol). Hardly the signs of someone with a destroyed leg.

If things would have went perfectly, Rob would have gotten the take down to slow Melvin down. Then with him slowed down, knock him out from the standing. However, Melvin did a lot of good things in there that made it very uncomfortable for Rob to take the shot. Melvin kept good spacing and mixed in a couple of knees. Normally Melvin leads with hands which would have opened the shot up, but he didn't. Our plan from the very start was to get Melvin come forward though. If you do the research fellas, every time he's been knocked out it was him coming forward. Also, what better way to get a take down than to have an opponent over persue, coming forward? I do drills with my fighters for when you are under fire. The key is to keep a strong base/balance, and keep your heads/shoulders moving side to side with your hands up. Its a way time someone over extending. You see Rob trying to do this a few times in the fight, but couldnt get it timed to execute right away. However, Rob had faith it would open up again because of what he saw in film. He went back to it and landed an amazing shot. Rob knew he was gonna finish Melvin in these spot because of glaring holes in his game there.

I know some guys are big Melvin fans and they should be, Ill be when he's not fighting one of my guys because he's exciting. However, give my boy a little credit here. It takes amazing timing, speed, strength and most importantly skill and courage to do what he did Saturday night. He doesn't read this stuff, but I do. I know how many people were ready to coronate Melvin. However, Robbie is the real deal and he wants to show it. We have some holes to continue to work on (like every fighter should), but I will never walk into the cage or ring thinking that if Rob touches the person that he wont go to sleep.

I realize that I will never convince some of you because thats the nature of forums and the type of people it attracts at times, but Lawler did something amazing Saturday night. Whether you want to give him credit or not, the real experts know. To those that are Lawler Fans, even were were scared for him Saturday night, thanks for supporting him and keep on watching. He's gonna keep impressing and I got a feeling that there are gonna be some more great surprises on the horizon!
2/1/10 2:40 PM
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Jsteven
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Edited: 02/01/10 2:39 PM
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VTFU
2/1/10 2:46 PM
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Zedlepln
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Very nice, Matt. Thanks for sharing.

Gotta feel good for a plan to come together like that.

2/1/10 3:00 PM
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Jsteven
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Robbie Lawler KOs Melvin Manhoef [Strikeforce]
 
2/1/10 3:01 PM
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super chin
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nothing lucky about hitting that hard. good post by lawler's coach.

still...blindfolded kid shooting darts? it's not called an analogy orcus, it's called trolling or legitimately hating.
2/1/10 3:02 PM
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Herring In A Fur Coat
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FightMatrix.com, MMA Rankings
 Pena and Roufus said everything that needed to be said on this thread.
2/1/10 3:03 PM
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liquidrob
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crazy thread, anyway

it you watched the fight you would say Melvin is the better striker, but its irrelevent because Robbie won, Lawler didnt want to stand there and trade for obvious reasons, he played a dangerous game because his leg during the fight was hurt and he would have probably not even sniffed a takedown with his leg in that condition

He played a little possum and caught Melvin going for the kill, thats why we love this sport and little gloves make fights like this great

it wasnt luck, it was a dangerous strategy and it worked, great win for Robbie
2/1/10 4:29 PM
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fedorsbelly
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Melvin's chin tapped.
2/1/10 4:41 PM
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sleepernoob
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liquidrob - crazy thread, anyway

it you watched the fight you would say Melvin is the better striker, but its irrelevent because Robbie won, Lawler didnt want to stand there and trade for obvious reasons, he played a dangerous game because his leg during the fight was hurt and he would have probably not even sniffed a takedown with his leg in that condition

He played a little possum and caught Melvin going for the kill, thats why we love this sport and little gloves make fights like this great

it wasnt luck, it was a dangerous strategy and it worked, great win for Robbie


+1, if Robbie started trading he would have lost. Great game plan by Robbie and his coaches.
2/1/10 5:04 PM
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whistleblower
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Chuck Kongo - Once again, name me anywhere in boxing where the various aforementioned freakshows and/or novelty fighters(because that's what they-whether it's Bob Sapp or Rampage-are in the context of K-1 matchmaking) would have even the slightest fucking snowball's chance in Hell of beating ANY of the current top ranked boxers in a boxing match PERIOD. EVER. Not just lose to them "most of the time".

Uh, you do realize that fuckin' Nikolai Valuev - and please, don't even try to argue that he is so much more technically skilled than even a Hong Man Choi - actually became not just a top contender, but even a "world champion" in boxing's HW division? And please tell us what world-class technical boxing skills Valuev has - aside from being big.

And Valuev actually piled up a 46-0 record in the division, along with a "championship," based on little - if anything - more than his size.

So you don't think some other 7-foot under-skilled "freak show" could come in and at least become a contender, if not even a "champion," like Valuev did - or at least "have even the slightest fucking snowball's chance in Hell of beating ANY of the current top ranked boxers in a boxing match PERIOD. EVER."?

So please spare us the misfounded boxing sanctimony. When in the HW division in particular, being a "freak show" like Valuev wasn't just enough to beat "ANY of the current top ranked boxers," but was even enough to become a "champion" there.

And why is it that every single time I ask - no one can ever come up with anyone who they would actually favor to consistently beat K-1's best (e.g., Schilt, Hari, Alistair, Bonjasky, Aerts, Teixeira, JLB) in a striking contest?
Chuck Kongo - They should NEVER lose to opponents like that.

Just like how GSP should NEVER lose to an opponent like Serra, or how Li'l Nog should NEVER lose to an opponent like Sokoudjou, or how Anderson should NEVER lose to an opponent like Takase, or how Wagnney Fabiano should NEVER lose to (much less get submitted by) an opponent like Semerzier...

Yeah, that "should NEVER lose to" phenomenon sure NEVER happens in MMA like it does in K-1, does it.
2/1/10 5:12 PM
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Wasa-B
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thanks for the comments on here pena.

so....

manhoef was dominating. he hurt robbie.

when he stepped into the pocket, he hesitated and was ended up taking a vicious lawler hook.

great fight.
2/1/10 5:17 PM
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Wasa-B
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orcus -  
" Fedor being the blinded dart throwing kid and Lawler the sharpshooter? Come on, man."

Ha, it's an analogy. You don't think Fedor is known for just winging them out there, not especially caring how or where they connect? Half the time it seems he uses punches at least as much to get into clinch range as he does to try to KO the guy, if not more since he generally prefers to win his fights on the ground.

Lawler, known throughout his career for being a KO puncher, waited patiently for four minutes, not throwing a punch, and then threw a single dead-on KO counter. Fedor missed wildly, literally stumbling over himself after missing by a good foot, for three minutes, then landed the first KO punch of his entire career as his opponent literally jumped into the same punch he had already thrown numerous times. If you guys are seriously trying to claim the two situations are exactly the same and only a contemptible, "agenda"-driven double standard could possibly view them differently, then I don't know what to tell you.


And lawler was also taking much more of a beating than Fedor who was being outpointed at best. Yes, he missed some punches but and not to beat a beaten down rock but out of the 3 some odd minute fight, about 2 of it consisted of striking a minute was spent in the clinch.

Fedor did look very sharp up to that point, i agree but AA never connected with anything substantial up then either.

But again, not looking very sharp for 2 some odd minutes of striking then getting a KTFO doesnt solidfy the blind dart theory imo. Maybe if it was for 23 minutes of AA schooling Fedor then....

The other thing is that Fedor has fought with more focus on his striking for years imo
2/1/10 5:37 PM
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whistleblower
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orcus - "btw, orcus to be fair, there is a freeze shot of lawlers hook on the official bout thread and lawler looks like hes looking at the same spot as fedor was when they both made contact with the guys they KTFO."

You are quite correct. So I'll have to ask again, why is it that the same Champions of Accuracy, Truth, and Justice are not foaming at the mouth and hammering on the keyboards to attack the NUMEROUS people here on numerous threads that called Lawler's punch "lucky"?

Uh, why aren't YOU the one "foaming at the mouth and hammering on the keyboards" this time - on "NUMEROUS" threads like you were after the Fedor-Arlovski fight (ad nauseam) - where you were pro-actively and obsessively calling Fedor's means of victory just a "blind" and "lucky punch" (your exact descriptions), every chance you got?

Why is it that now, when Lawler throws a one-punch KO from out of nowhere - where, up to that point, he had been getting outstruck even more definitively than Fedor had - it was just a case instead where you claim, "in fact it was obvious to anyone that he was waiting for the best moment."

But then why was it NOT so "obvious" for Fedor - when Fedor was actually taking far less damage and blows along the way, and seemed even more unfazed and deliberately calm leading up to his KTFO? Which guy really seemed just as much, if not even more, "waiting for the best moment"?

And since you also specifically agree now that Lawler was "looking at the same spot as fedor was when they both made contact with the guys they KTFO" - then how is it that Fedor's punch was just "blind" and "lucky" then - while Lawler's was that of a "sharpshooter" now?

You know what, if someone wants to claim Lawler's punch was the result of being a "sharpshooter" and that he was just "waiting for the best moment" - that's fine. Even if you don't necessarily agree with that conclusion, it would still be within the realm or reach of reasonable interpretation.

But not from you.

Not by your own previously stated - and specifically adamant - standards.

Your previously endless, fanatical, and "foaming at the mouth" detraction from Fedor's punch for being "blind" and "lucky" - while now propping up Lawler's punch as being "sharpshooter" and "waiting for the best moment" instead - is undeniably the height of hypocrisy, and the very definition of double standards. But then again, it's you, so why should anyone really be surprised. I guess we should have been more surprised if you were actually gonna be consistent this time.
2/1/10 5:39 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Thanks for the informative post Pena. I'm also a lefty - How effective is that "letting the lead leg go" against the inside kick?
2/1/10 5:52 PM
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ajl416az
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whistleblower - 
Chuck Kongo - Once again, name me anywhere in boxing where the various aforementioned freakshows and/or novelty fighters(because that's what they-whether it's Bob Sapp or Rampage-are in the context of K-1 matchmaking) would have even the slightest fucking snowball's chance in Hell of beating ANY of the current top ranked boxers in a boxing match PERIOD. EVER. Not just lose to them "most of the time".

Uh, you do realize that fuckin' Nikolai Valuev - and please, don't even try to argue that he is so much more technically skilled than even a Hong Man Choi - actually became not just a top contender, but even a "world champion" in boxing's HW division? And please tell us what world-class technical boxing skills Valuev has - aside from being big.

And Valuev actually piled up a 46-0 record in the division, along with a "championship," based on little - if anything - more than his size.

So you don't think some other 7-foot under-skilled "freak show" could come in and at least become a contender, if not even a "champion," like Valuev did - or at least "have even the slightest fucking snowball's chance in Hell of beating ANY of the current top ranked boxers in a boxing match PERIOD. EVER."?

So please spare us the misfounded boxing sanctimony. When in the HW division in particular, being a "freak show" like Valuev wasn't just enough to beat "ANY of the current top ranked boxers," but was even enough to become a "champion" there.

And why is it that every single time I ask - no one can ever come up with anyone who they would actually favor to consistently beat K-1's best (e.g., Schilt, Hari, Alistair, Bonjasky, Aerts, Teixeira, JLB) in a striking contest?
Chuck Kongo - They should NEVER lose to opponents like that.

Just like how GSP should NEVER lose to an opponent like Serra, or how Li'l Nog should NEVER lose to an opponent like Sokoudjou, or how Anderson should NEVER lose to an opponent like Takase, or how Wagnney Fabiano should NEVER lose to (much less get submitted by) an opponent like Semerzier...

Yeah, that "should NEVER lose to" phenomenon sure NEVER happens in MMA like it does in K-1, does it.

and don't swing and miss too hard, we already know you don't get it.

who cares if Valuev is big and slow?
he has far superior skill to HMC.  just because you have no idea what that would look like doesn't mean anything at all.  i mean jesus, hmc can barely move nowadays

a 'decent' standup MMA fighter, in Overeem, with multiple KO losses against 'inferior MMA strikers', has gone very close with Bonjasky, and beat up Aerts?  and KO'd hari, even though he had a recent fight.
after what, a year or two out of consistent MMA fights?

that is nothing like an experienced grappler catching Silva, a kickboxer, in a submission.  or Serra beating GSP in the pocket, when GSP isn't good at trading shots in the pocket.  a kickboxing match is a contest of skill in 1 area.  kickboxing.  no other skills are involved, unlike MMA.

and Overeem, a fighter with a far inferior level of experience, has gone to toe to toe with some of their most distinguished competitors in K-1 and wasn't blown away.

it wouldn't happen in boxing.  because they are actually elite. 

i would bet a good deal of my cash that Overeem would get KTFO by big ugly slow 'no skill' valuev 
   

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