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UnderGround Forums >> Let's hear it for K-1 level striking!


2/1/10 6:25 PM
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WrestlingSucks
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So I'm clear on this thread...

The myth of k1 striking only applies when a mma fighter ko's a guy with a .500 record in k1?

If this thread was directly about Melvin, why not make that the topic of discussion rather than trying to shit on k1 striking when the fact remains that they are better strikers than mma fighters?

Anderson is a great striker. He's the exception. But Melvin getting ko'd in mma doesn't prove Anderson would do well in k1. When Igor got decimated in k1, he was one of the most feared strikers in mma. Then a k1 striker named Mirko joined mma and destroyed him in mma. That to me, seems more relevant because CroCop was actually closer to his prime then and fighting a guy who was knocking everyone out in mma at that time.

Cro Cop then went and did the same to Wanderlei, another notable mma striker at that time.

K1 max is k1 striking. Sorry that doesn't help serve your purpose to discredit Overeem and Manhoef. A k1 striker joining mma is always a good thing to me. It should be to you, too. What the Lawler fight showed me was that one of the best strikers in mma according to most people, had alot of trouble with a guy who is very, very average in k1.
2/1/10 6:38 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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ajl416az - 

and Overeem, a fighter with a far inferior level of experience, has gone to toe to toe with some of their most distinguished competitors in K-1 and wasn't blown away.

it wouldn't happen in boxing.  because they are actually elite. 

i would bet a good deal of my cash that Overeem would get KTFO by big ugly slow 'no skill' valuev 
   


Then how did Vitali Klitchko get KOed by a kickboxer?
2/1/10 7:10 PM
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ajl416az
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you mean in kickboxing?  in 93?

do i have to answer that?
2/1/10 7:15 PM
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whistleblower
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ajl416az - who cares if Valuev is big and slow?
he has far superior skill to HMC.

LOL. Like what? Immobility and a sporadic molasses jab? Please detail for us all this "far superior skill" that Valuev has shown in his fights. Have you actually seen Valuev fight?
ajl416az - i mean jesus, hmc can barely move nowadays

Yeah, as opposed to Valuev. Again - have you seen Valuev fight? Talk about "can barely move nowadays" (or any days)...
ajl416az - or Serra beating GSP in the pocket, when GSP isn't good at trading shots in the pocket.

LOL. But Serra is, right? Yes, that fearsome striker Serra with his Igor-like reputation for effectively "trading shots in the pocket."

But please tell us how "Serra beating GSP in the pocket" was actually NOT an example of a dominant fighter in MMA - who was not only supposed to be a better MMA fighter, but ALSO the better striker - losing to someone where he "should NEVER lose to opponents like that"?

And are you claiming that in MMA, there have not been ample examples of how "They should NEVER lose to opponents like that"? Or has that principle only been confined to K-1? (If that's the case, I wonder why the saying "anything can happen in MMA" has become such a cliche.)
ajl416az - a kickboxing match is a contest of skill in 1 area. kickboxing. no other skills are involved, unlike MMA.

Yeah, and that "1 area" is actually the most inherently unpredictable one of all - and you are actually forced by the rules of kickboxing to continuously STAY in that most unpredictable area of all - whereas in MMA, you can take the fight to a different range once you get in trouble in another one.

How many times has a favorite (or someone who was perceived to be the better fighter) in MMA been "caught" on the feet - and lost to someone they "should NEVER lose to" because of it? Aren't many, if not most, of those anomalous outcomes in MMA the direct result of stand-up rather than submissions on the ground? (Which are generally more methodically developed and set-up than the more sudden, explosive nature of strikes.)

MMA is largely unpredictable because it includes many different elements - but striking is still the most unpredictable element of all. Which K-1 specializes in.

And ultimately, was "Serra beating GSP in the pocket" any LESS of an upset than Alistair beating Hari was - especially since Alistair's primary background has always been in striking, which he has trained in for many years (even before his MMA career) and where he seems to have dramatically improved in that specialty even compared to his own K-1 results from just a few years prior? (Not to mention the dramatic size and power advantage he has now.)

So please, bottom-line it for us - how exactly does the statement "They should NEVER lose to opponents like that" NOT apply to MMA, as it does for K-1?
2/1/10 7:22 PM
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The Sultan
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 those kicks were rough.
2/1/10 7:50 PM
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ajl416az
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Edited: 02/01/10 7:52 PM
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whistleblower - 
ajl416az - who cares if Valuev is big and slow?
he has far superior skill to HMC.

LOL. Like what? Immobility and a sporadic molasses jab? Please detail for us all this "far superior skill" that Valuev has shown in his fights. Have you actually seen Valuev fight?
ajl416az - i mean jesus, hmc can barely move nowadays

Yeah, as opposed to Valuev. Again - have you seen Valuev fight? Talk about "can barely move nowadays" (or any days)...
ajl416az - or Serra beating GSP in the pocket, when GSP isn't good at trading shots in the pocket.

LOL. But Serra is, right? Yes, that fearsome striker Serra with his Igor-like reputation for effectively "trading shots in the pocket."

But please tell us how "Serra beating GSP in the pocket" was actually NOT an example of a dominant fighter in MMA - who was not only supposed to be a better MMA fighter, but ALSO the better striker - losing to someone where he "should NEVER lose to opponents like that"?

And are you claiming that in MMA, there have not been ample examples of how "They should NEVER lose to opponents like that"? Or has that principle only been confined to K-1? (If that's the case, I wonder why the saying "anything can happen in MMA" has become such a cliche.)
ajl416az - a kickboxing match is a contest of skill in 1 area. kickboxing. no other skills are involved, unlike MMA.

Yeah, and that "1 area" is actually the most inherently unpredictable one of all - and you are actually forced by the rules of kickboxing to continuously STAY in that most unpredictable area of all - whereas in MMA, you can take the fight to a different range once you get in trouble in another one.

How many times has a favorite (or someone who was perceived to be the better fighter) in MMA been "caught" on the feet - and lost to someone they "should NEVER lose to" because of it? Aren't many, if not most, of those anomalous outcomes in MMA the direct result of stand-up rather than submissions on the ground? (Which are generally more methodically developed and set-up than the more sudden, explosive nature of strikes.)

MMA is largely unpredictable because it includes many different elements - but striking is still the most unpredictable element of all. Which K-1 specializes in.

And ultimately, was "Serra beating GSP in the pocket" any LESS of an upset than Alistair beating Hari was - especially since Alistair's primary background has always been in striking, which he has trained in for many years (even before his MMA career) and where he seems to have dramatically improved in that specialty even compared to his own K-1 results from just a few years prior? (Not to mention the dramatic size and power advantage he has now.)

So please, bottom-line it for us - how exactly does the statement "They should NEVER lose to opponents like that" NOT apply to MMA, as it does for K-1?

seen valuev fight and hes slow.  but thats typical for a 7 footer.  at least he can circle and keep his feet under him.  much better then a lot of MMA fighters ive seen, and even some K-1 guys.


and upsets should happen more often in MMA more then kickboxing because its MMA.  its easier to get finished, when there are multiple ways to be finished.

in K-1, all they can do is knock each other out.  everything they train is related to knocking each other out or avoiding a knockout.  but the finish rate in K-1 is through the roof.  even in non-tournament matchups. 
2/1/10 7:51 PM
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SQad127
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 wow who cares? some of you take this shit WAYYYYYYYYYYY too seriously
2/1/10 8:28 PM
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Matt Pena
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GladiatorGannon - Thanks for the informative post Pena. I'm also a lefty - How effective is that "letting the lead leg go" against the inside kick?


Rob is actually ambidextrous... so letting that leg go like that doesnt affect him as much as it would for a left hand dominant person. He can switch up and still keep in position to punch well, which is what you will see he did in the video at the end of the fight. Definitely takes even hands to execute, and definitely not a conventional thing.

I did instruct Robbie not to do a standard check. I felt it would have required Robbie to stand right in front of Melvin, probably off balance, leaving Robbie vulnerable for very powerful combinations. I didnt want Rob to be a stationary target. Normal strikers, I wouldn't have been so worried about, but Melvin is definitely not classified as normal.
2/1/10 8:55 PM
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molsonman
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I hope you guys realize no matter how much you own and prove Orcus wrong he will keep posting. Posting his bs over and over and over and over.
2/1/10 9:10 PM
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super chin
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^

he is cre-like in his tenacity.
2/1/10 10:01 PM
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SKARHEAD
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whistleblower - 
orcus - "i know there's a good chance it's somehow going to come back to you hating fedor"

It's weird how I have no problem making clear my dislike of some fighters, including another p4p contender in BJ Penn, going so far as to say I can't stand him and hope he loses his fights, but for others like Fedor I like to pretend that I am a fan while plotting to convince anonymous morons on a message board to hate him. I wish the geniuses like you and whistleblower and Skarhead, who know my every thought, would enlighten me as to why that is.

When someone has to constantly STRAIN - to the most extreme and even absurdly twisted lengths - to even possibly, obsessively, nitpick and detract from Fedor every chance he gets, it is virtually impossible to perceive him as a "fan."

Hell, right after Fedor's spectacular annihilation of Sylvia, you know what your reaction was?

While everyone else was rightfully awed - according to you, one of the conclusions to take from that fight was how Fedor LACKED punching power. Yes, that's right. The spin that you - and literally ONLY you could even possibly, remotely come up with - was that this fight actually further exposed a weakness on Fedor's part, because he needed to use way too many punches to finally get Sylvia down, which is why he was unable to finish Sylvia any sooner. (Where Sylvia only "wilted slowly" - your exact words, btw - because Fedor just did not have enough power behind his punches.)

Yes, orcus, that would be the natural, sincere, and objective reaction of any true "fan."

This would be like me claiming here now that I am an orcus fan. Hey, I have never actually outright said that I'm not a fan of yours, right? Well, you know what - I will say right now that I am really a big fan of yours, orcus. I root for you in almost every thread you post, and when I counter you, it is only out of respect and appreciation for your posts, and a sincere desire to make sure that you are understood more clearly and correctly. I can honestly say that I am as big a "fan" of yours as you are of Fedor's. You must believe me, right? How could you not? After all, I do say so myself. (And I have never expressly, specifically said otherwise.)

Signed,
whistleblower, president of the orcus "fan" club




ouch...but true...and LMAO^^
2/1/10 10:28 PM
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orcus
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 "While everyone else was rightfully awed - according to you, one of the conclusions to take from that fight was how Fedor LACKED punching power."

Not quite.

What I said, which was entirely sensible, was that it made NO SENSE to proclaim the guy who took a dozen punches to put down Tim as one of the heaviest punchers in the sport, when other opponents had put Tim down with a single punch. I said that putting someone down with a dozen punches in the span of less than a second was entirely what one would expect, and not a telling demonstration of punching power. What would you expect if ANYONE, even those specifically NOT known for punching power, used Tim's (or anyone's) head as a speedbag and unloaded that many full-body hooks on him in less than a second? The question you NEVER, NOT ONCE attempted to answer, was how is it that Randy and Arlovski dropped Tim with a single punch if Fedor hits so much harder than they do? The obvious answer is that either Fedor does not hit Tim as hard as they did OR is not very accurate; the end result being the same in either case -- that it made NO SENSE to call him a KO puncher.

Now, of course, after back to back KOs, that has changed. This is incomprehensible to you, because you -- hilariously, but also somewhat sadly -- think that changing opinions due to new data is "revisionism".

"
Hey, I have never actually outright said that I'm not a fan of yours, right?"

It's hilarious that you follow me around on these threads and post these massive walls of text specifically addressed to me when you know I have you on Ignore. Luckily for you, you have plenty of sycophants eager to quote you and crow that you "owned" or "son'd" me (whatever the fuck that means), even when you are wrong or lying about what I said and hopelessly incapable of understanding even the parts you do get right.
2/1/10 10:38 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Manhoef does in fact have K-1 level power, just not a K-1 level chin.

A random Japanese guy KO'd him last year.

A Korean judo guy almost KO'd him as well in MMA.

Anyway, great fight
2/2/10 1:10 PM
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Hollywood Blonde
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orcus -  

The obvious answer is that either Fedor does not hit Tim as hard as they did OR is not very accurate; the end result being the same in either case -- that it made NO SENSE to call him a KO puncher.

Now, of course, after back to back KOs, that has changed.


orcus--By your definition of a "KO puncher," don't we just have one piece of evidence now that suggests Fedor is a KO puncher (the Arlovski fight) and another piece of evidence that suggests he is not (the multiple punch Sylvia fight)?
2/2/13 11:45 PM
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orcus
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Anyone still arguing?

 

2/3/13 1:05 AM
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orcus
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Three year anniversary of this thread (and Manhoef's flatline KO at the hands of Robbie Lawler), anyone still doubt it?

K-1 Grand Champ does absolutely nothing on the feet for 10 minutes and then gets turned into one of the most brutal highlight reel KOs of all time by a slow striker who got annihilated on the feet by Daniel Cormier and outboxed by Werdum.

Go ahead and pin all your hopes on Spong now, I guess...

2/3/13 11:43 AM
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Gokudamus stole my name
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"Done! It's funny though, both our bets have been fights I could see going either way. I'm definitely more confident about Anderson winning than I was Sherk, though. 30 days?"

WTF.. how did i welch on this and you not call me out?

you can pick my name or make it entertaining and pick a new bet, i will take any underdog


2/3/13 1:35 PM
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Wasa-B
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Orcus to be fair, excluding the Reem fanboys, i think most serious fans were already pointing out his notable shortocmins in the past (KOs), underwhelming performance vs Werdum (at least he swung vs Werdum) and also his somewhat lucky circumstances at the GP he won.

People also noted that his cover up and throw hooks up in the pocket may not be the best for MMA and that a guy like JDS could beat that.

Yeah, i thought he'd beat BF but thought that BF's chance was somehow ending up on top and then GNPing like Fedor fight.

Also everyone knows Manhoef is one of the hottest/coldest or heavy hitting but easy to also hit guy out there and I think Spong at LHW esp not fighting at HW in K1 cuz he has to, is much more technical than Overeem but that he still has to learn the MMA game.

Overeem and Manhoef are not great examples of "K1 level striking" imo in that they are flashy and strong but hardly indestructable in either MMA or K1.

But yeah, thread bump is fine with me. The Reem was pathetic. I thought he was extra cocky coming into this. when he was in SF, i thought he was very humble and had very intelligent interviews. Then he had his extra cocky walk in, which woulda been fine had he actually looked good. He didnt do SHIT in the first 10 min. Diddnt even throw anything at this "big target" that was standing right in front of him.

That was so emabarrasing. WTF?
2/3/13 2:16 PM
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Wasa-B
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WrestlingSucks - So I'm clear on this thread...

The myth of k1 striking only applies when a mma fighter ko's a guy with a .500 record in k1?

If this thread was directly about Melvin, why not make that the topic of discussion rather than trying to shit on k1 striking when the fact remains that they are better strikers than mma fighters?

Anderson is a great striker. He's the exception. But Melvin getting ko'd in mma doesn't prove Anderson would do well in k1. When Igor got decimated in k1, he was one of the most feared strikers in mma. Then a k1 striker named Mirko joined mma and destroyed him in mma. That to me, seems more relevant because CroCop was actually closer to his prime then and fighting a guy who was knocking everyone out in mma at that time.

Cro Cop then went and did the same to Wanderlei, another notable mma striker at that time.

K1 max is k1 striking. Sorry that doesn't help serve your purpose to discredit Overeem and Manhoef. A k1 striker joining mma is always a good thing to me. It should be to you, too. What the Lawler fight showed me was that one of the best strikers in mma according to most people, had alot of trouble with a guy who is very, very average in k1.

^^^^^
2/3/13 2:21 PM
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Wasa-B
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orcus - 

Three year anniversary of this thread (and Manhoef's flatline KO at the hands of Robbie Lawler), anyone still doubt it?

K-1 Grand Champ does absolutely nothing on the feet for 10 minutes and then gets turned into one of the most brutal highlight reel KOs of all time by a slow striker who got annihilated on the feet by Daniel Cormier and outboxed by Werdum.

Go ahead and pin all your hopes on Spong now, I guess...


Anderson and Spong are close in size. Who would you bet on in K1?
2/3/13 2:54 PM
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orcus
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"He didnt do SHIT in the first 10 min. Diddnt even throw anything at this "big target" that was standing right in front of him.That was so emabarrasing. WTF?"

Yeah, it's why I'm a bit skeptical of the "he lost because he had zero respect for Bigfoot" argument. I would think someone with zero respect would go in over-aggressive, not play such a boringly passive, conservative game.

"Anderson and Spong are close in size. Who would you bet on in K1?"

That would be awesome and I'd love to see it. Not sure how Anderson would be affected by the giant gloves. Manhoef was competitive with Spong and went the distance and I think Anderson is better than Manhoef for sure. I'd bet on Anderson because he is a wizard and I'm a fanboy.

5/25/13 11:47 PM
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orcus
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lol

Hey there's still Spong right!

5/26/13 12:14 AM
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mma ray
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Edited: 05/26/13 12:16 AM
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Again with this? Different sports and practically eras now (referring to K-1) at this point
5/26/13 12:20 AM
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D241
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orcus - 

lol

Hey there's still Spong right!


Don't insult JDS.

 

Beating Hunt shows how good JDS's stand up is, not how weak Hunt's is.

5/26/13 12:20 AM
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Mufasatheking
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orcus - 

lol

Hey there's still Spong right!


Mousasi is more relevant atm

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