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JKD UnderGround >> One mans opinion


2/2/10 12:28 PM
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Joe Maffei
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www.youtube.com/watch 
2/2/10 12:41 PM
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Joe Maffei
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IMHO This is only one way to see a Knife attack, but circumstance may very and evil people will be sneaky about getting the job done. If you survive an attack you are more lucky then skilled.
2/2/10 1:04 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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You posted this so I assume you want other opinions.

I like the geared up free sparring for it's own sake, but IMO, if one side gets in a killing or disabling stab or slash the free-fight should be stopped by the instructor and the man told 'you're dead, Jim'.

Also, you must drive the guy back. Use a head spear, trap the knife arm and keep spearing and kneeing, and get both hands on his knife arm and force it to the ground. You can use the ground as a disarm surface (bend the blade out of the grip).

Sparring with 6-8" blades is WORTHLESS. See the video - nobody engages.

Also just free-grappling with a knife is basically the wrong way to do knife grappling. It's too chaotic, you're just demonstrating wrestling skills, and not learning much.

$0.02

2/2/10 4:31 PM
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laqueus
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"I like the geared up free sparring for it's own sake, but IMO, if one side gets in a killing or disabling stab or slash the free-fight should be stopped by the instructor and the man told 'you're dead, Jim'. "

I disagree, that's a horrible attitude. If you're dead, you're dead, if you're not, you keep fighting. Always assume you'll be able to keep fighting, for any purpose. If you assume he got you and give up at that point, you might do the same thing when you're really trying to defend yourself. Or said in a different way; if you think you're going to lose, you will lose. Just keep going.

It is interesting to do something like that with felt markers or a NLB to just see at the end of it how badly both people got sliced up, and start training to avoid getting marked as much as possible, but just because someone slashed you, doesn't mean you stop. I figure if I'm in a knife fight, I wasn't able to run for whatever reason, and odds are I'll die, so I might as well take the other guy down with me. (Know whether I can carry through with this or freeze up when actually faced with the situation is another matter).

Another thing to consider is, while some people carry knives, sometimes you don't have it on you, so it's going to be person with knife vs person without knife. That's really going to change things.

Also, I can think of two scenarios off the top of my head. One, a mugger brandishes a knife. I figure if he's holding the knife out so you can see it, he doesn't actually want to attack you, he just wants your money. Two, he's scoping you out, and you find out you're in a knife fight after he's already stabbed you at least once.

Neither of those situations are really addressed. Situation one can be solved with a good decoy wallet, and screw actually fighting. Situation 2, even if you've got a knife, I imagine it's pretty hard to deploy it after being stabbed, and with the body possibly going into shock, I suppose my grip could slip and I'd slice my own hand with the pocket knife I have.

If I'm actually going to fight with a knife, I want a fixed blade with a pommel, so I can grip it well and not worry about my knife slipping and slicing my own palm. That's not always feasible to carry around with me, and if I'm going somewhere I think I might need it, I'm going to decide to just not go there. So I'm really left with a situation where I'll be defending, unarmed, a surprise knife attack.
2/2/10 5:35 PM
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Joe Maffei
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"I like the geared up free sparring for it's own sake, but IMO, if one side gets in a killing or disabling stab or slash the free-fight should be stopped by the instructor and the man told 'you're dead, Jim'."

No!, many documented cases show multiple wounds, very common 10-20, A stabbing frenzy. Unless a direct shot, most people keep flailing, kicking and fighting even after many stabs, the will to live, this is one reason why the attack continues. So you have to let the fight go.

"Also, you must drive the guy back. Use a head spear, trap the knife arm and keep spearing and kneeing, and get both hands on his knife arm and force it to the ground. You can use the ground as a disarm surface (bend the blade out of the grip)."

Some answers are simple in theory but are far and few between in reality. Looking at the worst case scenario, you have to take in consideration who you are trying to get the knife from and how experienced and committed he is, evaluate the initial attack , then go from there. You can be stabbed 5-10 times in a few seconds. It's like bull riding, people have all sorts of techniques to stay on, now tell that to the bull, and it doesn't matter whether the bull has 6 or 8 inch horns it's the "BULL" AND the horns you have to deal with.
I can only speak of what I have found in my research, prison survallance, street footage, and talking to folks (Law Enforcement) who have survived and attack. Most admit the same things.

1. It came on them to fast
2. they didn't even know the guy had a knife.
3. they didn't know they were stabbed...
2/3/10 2:13 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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laqueus - "I like the geared up free sparring for it's own sake, but IMO, if one side gets in a killing or disabling stab or slash the free-fight should be stopped by the instructor and the man told 'you're dead, Jim'. "

I disagree, that's a horrible attitude. If you're dead, you're dead, if you're not, you keep fighting. 
I understand where you're coming from, but what actual good does it do in -sparring- to keep fighting when you've clearly been 'killed'? Crafty Dog addresses this on his DLO video. When the killing blow is in, they don't just continue to roll around. So everything has a time and place, but if you're not doing the right thing, controlling the knife and getting killed, why even have the knives in there? It's too chaotice.

We're doing stuff here because, it appears, we can't figure out better way. Knife fighting is just too fast, you can't tell if you're hit, and IMO, the drill is low on 'specificity'. So, maybe as a happy medium, you'd have the instructor watch and when a clear killing blow happens (and not just a swipe), he calls it, they reset and start over after 'critique'?

$0.02

 
2/3/10 2:19 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Joe Maffei -
I can only speak of what I have found in my research, prison survallance, street footage, and talking to folks (Law Enforcement) who have survived and attack. Most admit the same things.

1. It came on them to fast
2. they didn't even know the guy had a knife.
3. they didn't know they were stabbed...
I agree with your points. See above for my quibble on the 'drill' and low specificity, as depicted here. Both sides in that vid need coaching.

You can't keep going for those (good) throws if you've gotten hit, say to a vulnerable area. But yes, you keep moving and maybe the blow will slide off.

Is it better than nothing, yes, probably. Does it need more specificty, more intent towards controlling the knife arm? I think so. These two opponents, one guy is clearly better at this than the other. His throws are impressive. It's not a bad drill/sparring, but I see insufficent concentration on the knife arm.

If the guy ambushes you and you don't know he has a knife, then you don't know how to 'ramp it up'. Should we assume all ambushes are highly deadly and try to drive into the guy and use the head spear and apply maximum pressure? Maybe, depends on where you are. Threat assessment is one of the big problems in SD, and it's very important here.


 
2/4/10 5:59 AM
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laqueus
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WidespreadPanic - 
laqueus - "I like the geared up free sparring for it's own sake, but IMO, if one side gets in a killing or disabling stab or slash the free-fight should be stopped by the instructor and the man told 'you're dead, Jim'. "

I disagree, that's a horrible attitude. If you're dead, you're dead, if you're not, you keep fighting. 
I understand where you're coming from, but what actual good does it do in -sparring- to keep fighting when you've clearly been 'killed'? Crafty Dog addresses this on his DLO video. When the killing blow is in, they don't just continue to roll around. So everything has a time and place, but if you're not doing the right thing, controlling the knife and getting killed, why even have the knives in there? It's too chaotice.

We're doing stuff here because, it appears, we can't figure out better way. Knife fighting is just too fast, you can't tell if you're hit, and IMO, the drill is low on 'specificity'. So, maybe as a happy medium, you'd have the instructor watch and when a clear killing blow happens (and not just a swipe), he calls it, they reset and start over after 'critique'?

$0.02

 


I'd rather keep going for another 15-20 seconds, then stop. Then you don't have the association with that blow being a finisher and automatically giving in when it hits, but you still have the opportunity to review it. Also, I figure a knife wound won't kill right away, you'll have to bleed out, so even if the killing blow has landed, you've got the opportunity to take him down with you. I'd rather something like where you call out "dead", and then you've got 15 seconds to land a killing blow on the other guy. You're already dead, so no need to fight defensively, and forces the other guy to once he has landed it, stay in control. Then you're predicting when you're going to land the finishing blow, you do it, and immediately transition to a defensive control position. Now, it's entirely possible that someone dies right away when they're stabbed, but you hear people talking about being stabbed 7 times before they knew what was happening, so there's clearly a delay between the wound, realising you're wounded and then succumbing to the wound.
2/4/10 11:29 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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laqueus -
I'd rather keep going for another 15-20 seconds, then stop. Then you don't have the association with that blow being a finisher and automatically giving in when it hits, but you still have the opportunity to review it. Also, I figure a knife wound won't kill right away, you'll have to bleed out, so even if the killing blow has landed, you've got the opportunity to take him down with you.
Have I PM-ed you my knife training syllabus? I will if you want it. (don't know if you can PM as a mudnamer).

Anyway, I'm going by my own experience and by the Die Less Often Vid (Marc stops them after 1-3 killing blows there.

The whole idea of sparring close combat with high aliveness is problematic, but it MUST be done. Don't get me wrong. But people should also review the tapes, and have a debriefing.


 
2/4/10 11:12 PM
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laqueus
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I can receive PMs, but not send them. Send away!
2/5/10 5:21 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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^^ Well, without feedback, it's less interesting for me. When/if you buy a blue name, we'll have to chat.

2/5/10 6:58 AM
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laqueus
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PM me your email address, then we can talk that way.
2/7/10 10:45 AM
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Paul Hopkins
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 I would like to see your knife training syllabus.
2/7/10 11:02 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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 ^ Send me a PM and give me some idea of your background and we'll share info. I'd only ask you for some dialog, i.e. not just me giving you the program and not hearing anything back.



2/9/10 12:48 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Interesting discussion. It's something that not a lot of people outside of the military or LEO understand, that with weapons, you rarely see an instant stop. People take time to die in a fight, unless you do them in an instant kill spot (spine at neck, Jug clean and open, etc)
2/9/10 1:52 PM
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alvo69
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Edited: 02/09/10 2:16 PM
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 If the option is there, he'd better want to chase me down to stab me, because I'm running 180 degrees away if at ALL possible.  Barring that as an option,  if there is nothing on the ground to grab as a weapon/defensive tool (rebar, 2x4, fence post, rock, what have you at hand...) -    I'd hope to inflict SOME damage before crying out "Momma! Momma! Is that you?...." (you know , like the movies...)    -   Luck?  yeah, you'll need that in SPADES, but adrenaline is a powerful thing, as is the 'will to live', so anything can happen.  Either way, I'm not looking to find out, but I have started traini8ng JKD with a senior instructor in Paul Vunak's 'Progressive Fighting Systems'  , and we are just touching on knife work now.  
2/9/10 2:14 PM
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alvo69
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2/9/10 2:40 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Love the Vu mullet
2/16/10 12:17 AM
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Burton
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If you are lucky enough to see the knife before you are disabled, THE FIRST PRIORITY IS TO CONTROL THE KNIFE ARM WITH BOTH HANDS! If you start striking, you are in a trading war trading strikes for stab wounds. Grab with just one hand, and it will be ripped from your grip.

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