UnderGround Forums
 

JKD UnderGround >> characteristics of superior martial arts


2/11/10 12:27 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 2277
 
Obviously resistance and aliveness have already been established as characteristics of superior martial arts. The ones that actually work are full contact, full resistance, full force, and have you working the way you actually would in a fight.

Another thing, which of course ties in to that, is working both offense and defense. In boxing you learn to throw a punch, you then learn to block or slip that punch. You then go back and learn to throw a punch against someone who can block or slip it, and then learn how to block and slip the punch that assumes the other person is prepared for it. You've got a Vizziny gambit of sorts going on creating a cycle of excellence. You've always got to get better at everything, because the opposition is always getting better.

Inferior martial arts don't do this. Even if they have aliveness, they may not train the attack or the defense. They might train an attack pattern (such as in RBSDs), involving attacking the groin and the eyes, but they don't take it a step further assuming the defenses to those attacks, so they never develop. Or they might work defense against a knife attack, and have the knife wielder attacking with full force, but they never train to effectively attack with the knife, so you've never got something to improve your defense off. Same goes for the 'you do this, then I do this' type wrist locks.

This is why they're sport arts, or closely related to them, because if you train attacks and defenses, there's always some sport you can make out of it to test it, while if you're only training an attack or a defense, and not both, you can't make it competitive.
2/11/10 9:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3499
 Good thread I.

I used to say there were three levels of Martial Arts.

1. Block and then punch
2. Simultaneous block and punch
3. Intercepting strike.

Now, as the foundation of a style, this designation is true. But several Japanese MA have made 'block and then punch' style work. They used timing and attributes to  do so.

Wing Chun is an example of a simutaneous block and strike as is Western Boxing.

Supposedly JKD was going to be an example of an 'intercepting style'. Various weapons arts are known for this (spanish and italian dueling fencing - not 'stage fighting').

But notice what this means...Anyone? Bueller?

You can make it work with weapons, but it is extremely difficult to make it work empty handed. Of those who could come close, was BL. He had the speed and intention and able to read the opponent. But Hawkins Cheung said that BL told him in a letter he was upset and felt he had failed to make 'Interception' work as a system and he felt it had failed him. (of course BL had impossibly high standards, but still).

------
Anyway, IMO, Matt Thornton has 'defined' the concept for the 21st Century.

His ideas on 'Delivery Systems', and 'effective training progression' and 'slow rolling' and 'aliveness' trump anything I've seen so far.

$0.02
------


2/11/10 9:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/11/10 9:38 PM
Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3500
 On defense, I think there are about 3-5 levels, also.
1. Reaching out and 'catching' or parrying a punch/strike
2. Covering and cuffing a strike (arms in close)
3. Guarding (blow glances off arms)
4. Slipping a blow and 'making the guy miss'.
5. Counter striking

We all know about Willie Pep!.

TMA almost all do #1. Most MMA guys do #2 and #3. Guys like Anderson Silva, Rashad, and Machida do a lot of #4. Great boxers are a lot of #4 and #5.

$0.02
 
2/11/10 9:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 2284
I wouldn't think that just interception by itself would work. It sort of fails the "what's plan B?" part? You could go for interception, but you need a plan B, and a plan C. I suppose that's another characteristic of superior martial arts - they account for the initial plan failing. BJJ is a perfect example with the guard. It's not what you aim for, it's your plan B when you failed to attain top position. Wrestling has that too, with the sit out.

Another thing that occurred to me is consistent scope. Styles like boxing, muay thai, wrestling, bjj - they all have a consistent scope. In boxing you use your hands to attack the body and head to the front or sides. Everything in that is fair game. In Muay Thai it's attack the whole body using hands, feet, shins, knees, elbows. Both of them work, because within their scope everything is allowed. WTF TKD fails on this because you attack 3 spots on the body with your hands, or those 3 spots with your feet, as well as the head, but not the face. That really makes it WTF? As even though they train with aliveness, they train with full force, and they train with offense and defense creating a cycle of excellence, the whole situation gets far removed from reality.
2/11/10 9:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3501
 Well, I, be aware that 'Interception' is not just a striking art.

1. A good sprawl and whizzer might be considered an interception, as might a good shoot.
2. Intercepting the opponent's intention is also an inteception.
3. In BJJ, a perfectly timed bait&counter might be termed an 'interception'.

IMO, BL defined it a bit narrowly. He was not familiar with 'live rolling'. They did do more a JJJ, (and stage fighting) and supposedly, Larry Hartsell was pretty good but, looking at his books, he did not do real 'alive' grappling (at least back in the hayday). It's not evident in his books.

I think BL deserves some props in trying to adapt interception from studying fencing and thinking he could use his quickness to pull it off. He did pretty well, imo...(conceptually and in his sparring).

But, if -he- thought it was a failure, what does that tell you about 'normal guys' claiming to do it (his later students)?

I think some boxers manage to do it. Sugar Ray Leonard, for one.





2/12/10 2:22 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 2287
That's interesting. Was his reason for physical development to compensate for the difference of fighting with his hand instead of a sword?
2/12/10 4:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/12/10 8:56 AM
Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 3502
One of his ideas, was to find places where most people were weak and make it 'over strong'. This idea was taken from the concept of the Wing Chun 'bridge arm', and from the idea of the short power punch. He would take a technique and divide it into three parts and make each part much faster and robust then put them together.

Pictures you see of him standing in a squat cage with a bar over his arms was him developing his 'flowing or slipping energy' and his bridge. According to Jesse Glover, he was very hyper-active 'mr couldn't sit still' in school. So he would sit at his desk and do isometrics against the desk - pushing up. One day he slipped off the desk and his hand 'flew' out. He realized that if you worked on this 'flowing energy' you could turn a weak 'short punch' into a very powerful energy.

I've talked to several people about it, including James DeMile in email about it. You are aware of the concept of 'fa-jing' in Chen TJ? Well Mr DeMile was completely unaware of this concept. He claims (and I believe him) that what BL developed was....uh, different than what people say fa-jing is, and the ability they developed was much more powerful than what we've seen on the old vids taken from the 1-inch punch you see at the LongBeach Int'l tournament - where Jhoon Rhee was holding the mike?

Also according to Jess Glover, BL was developing even more sensational power shortly before he died.

As far as the 'intercepting' ability - it had several components. One was the uncanny ability that the Oakland group said BL had to intecept people's intentions in sparring - they all talk about how you couldn't really get off against him (though a few of them did it occasionally) and discovered BL's 'temper' as a result.

The reason you can do interceptions against the blade is that a weapon is longer, and a force and time multiplier - it's very fast and you can beat the opponent to the target, using preparations on the fencing blade - the 'beat', the deception, the cut-over, the glissade, and other fencing moves using the forte against the foible (or the weak part of the sword blade against the strong - or stiffer - part. You had the 'time advantage'.

BL felt he could over-develop his bridge (nobody could push his arms down), his 'intention' interception - reading the opponent' to an almost supernatural degree (really some simple cues), his reflex arc (like the move that happens when you burn yourself on the stove), and the components of his 'mph' speed, such that it could defeat most normal people's reactions.

He succeeded to a large degree, but he had some holes in his game - most notably wrestling, judo, grappling and the 'how' to do rolling. He made the mistake of trying to 'make those ranges' irrelevant due to his striking speed.

If he had lived, he'd have seen how BJJ, Judo, wrestling, clinch, grip-fighting, takedown and sprawl range worked and the 'how' behind rolling and aliveness. He'd have applied his principles to these, figured out what a 'delivery system' was, and applied his ideas of 'over-development' to them.

Hope this makes sense...
2/12/10 4:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
twinkletoesCT
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/26/02
Posts: 8781
Modern Self-Defense Center, Head Instructor
 Here's a framework to consider the issue of defenses:

Imagine a timeline. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Your partner throws a technique at you, and it occupies some block of time on that timeline.


                            [                                                                             ]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That technique can be divided into its beginning, middle, and end.


                           [    B                         M                  E       ]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beginners in every martial art first learn to defend at the END of the technique.  

The punch is in front of your face, so you pick it or slip it.    Your partner has passed your guard and established side mount, so you escape side mount. 

                          [   B                      M                       E     ]
------------------------------------------------------------------X----------------

Over time, intermediate players in whatever art we're discussing improve their awareness.  They learn to see the early stages of an attack and recognize it before it fully develops.  They now have the ability to defend during the middle of their partner's technique (they out-circle the round kick, or defend the guard pass before their partner reaches side mount). 

                        [     B                     M                      E     ]
----------------------------------------X---------------------------------------------

Advanced players enjoy such high-level awareness that they can counter during the early stages of their partner's attack, because they recognize the first movements and correctly identify the incoming attack. 

                       [         B              M                E  ]
--------------------X------------------------------------------------------------

This is what we call Interception:  a defense that occurs in the early stage of the attack, and stopping it from developing.  This requires the highest level of awareness in whatever phase or range we're discussing.

It is my understanding that this is the pinnacle of awareness, and so supremely desirable that this is WHY Bruce called his art "The Way of the Intercepting Fist". 

(Credit for all the above goes to Roy Harris)

2/12/10 7:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 2305
Oooh! I like! And I'm not at all surprised that Roy Harris presented it that way.
2/15/10 6:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lord Kancho
21 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/08
Posts: 1305
that's pretty brilliant, actually
2/15/10 9:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
twinkletoesCT
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/26/02
Posts: 8795
Modern Self-Defense Center, Head Instructor
That's a bit of the stuff he taught me the very first morning I trained with him, and that's how I knew that I had found the right instructor.
2/15/10 9:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Paul Hopkins
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2808

 last third of this clip

2/16/10 12:10 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Burton
6 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1703
JKDU--MMA For The Street, BJJ, Kali, President
Nice graph. Another way to put it is that there are three timings:
1-Defend the opponent's attack, then attack. (After)
2-Attack while defending the opponent's attack. (Simultaneous)
3-Attack during your opponent's preparation to attack. (Interception)

This applies to all ranges, with or without weaponry.
2/16/10 3:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Demitrius Barbito
40 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 980
A strong focus on avoiding violence and ending it quickly if it spontaneously occurs.
2/16/10 6:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Sir Drinks a lot
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/08
Posts: 181
I've always been somewhat interested in Vunak. He seems to have a colourful past, and has a rep of using his stuff for "streetfighting."

Has anyone here trained with him, if so what were your impressions of his teaching and material? Any thoughts on his approach to SD/streetfighting would be appreciated.

I own both his books. The first was interesting, but a little too short in my opinion. His "Anatomy of a Streetfight" was a big disappointment.
2/16/10 7:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 2371
I've got heresay from people who have been to Vunak's seminars, I gather he's one of those guys who has some good stuff but focuses way too much on eyegouging and groin attacks rather than delivery systems.
2/16/10 8:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lord Kancho
21 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/08
Posts: 1310
What kind of delivery system do you need for eye-gouging and groin attacks?
2/16/10 8:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 2372
The same as for anything else. If all you have is eye gouges, and the other guy has a delivery system, you'll fail on your gouge attempt and he'll gouge you with impunity. It's the same as learning a hook without anything else.
2/16/10 8:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lord Kancho
21 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/08
Posts: 1313
You're going to have to elaborate here. Let's say you're teaching me groin attacks and eye gouges. Can you give me example of teaching them with a delivery system and without a delivery system?
2/16/10 8:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 2374
With a delivery system, you'd teach groin attacks along with Muay Thai, working them in with inside thigh kicks. There you're learning to throw kicks properly in a sparring context, and you allow the groin as a target, even with sparring included and just keep going if you're hit on the cup. That way you're including them in your arsenal, but you're not overly reliant on them, and you're learning how to throw kicks properly as well.

Without a delivery system, you just practice kneeing or kicking in the groin. That's it.

Eye gouge it would be similar, if you practice it in a grappling context with a delivery system, the eye gouges would come in with cross-facing and grinding. It would be another thing to control the person's head.

Without a delivery system, they just say gouge the eyes when you're taken down to the ground.
2/16/10 8:38 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lord Kancho
21 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/08
Posts: 1314
Okay, I see what you mean now.

I trained for two years at a JKD school that was certified under Paul Vunak and the classes were either eye-gouging/hair-pulling/groin attacks, kickboxing, grappling or stick/knife fighting. Each class would be taught x number of times in a two week period, rotating randomly.

The dirty fighting was the best stuff I have EVER learned from a self-defense perspective. As I look back on it now, I wish it had been taught less as a fighting cirriculum (ie. counter a jab with an eye gouge, follow with a right, grab the head -- Muay Thai stayle -- and throw a knee to the groin) and more as a way to just overwhelm your opponent. That "screaming like a banshee and jumping on your assailant like a clawing wolverine" kind of approach would be more street-applicable, imo, than teaching us the sport-fighting mentality.
2/17/10 9:37 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Sir Drinks a lot
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/08
Posts: 183
It's essential to have a delivery system. Otherwise all we are left with is a collection of techniques loosely strung together. The sort of "if he does this, you do that" mentality that we now know does NOT work.

What do you guys think about what Vunak is saying in the vid about being "dispassionate?"
2/17/10 9:38 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Sir Drinks a lot
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/14/08
Posts: 184
Lord Kancho, what you are describing in your last post sounds a lot like Richard Dimitri's "Shredder." At least in terms of mindset.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.