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UnderGround Forums >> Nog was the #2 Fighter of the Decade


2/17/10 10:29 PM
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dahosse
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i worry about nog. his skills aren't as responsible for keeping him in elite levels of competition as his innate preternatural toughness. he's taken some real punishment over the years.
2/17/10 10:30 PM
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super chin
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orcus seems upset. he should take up a hobby. maybe hit a fight gym. his keen eye for the sport may improve and his posts wouldn't be routinely laughed at.
2/18/10 1:34 AM
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orcus
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 "He always took way too much punishment to appreciate his game."

Sapp, Fedor first fight (not so much the third and not at all the second), Crocop, and Sylvia were the only fights he took any excessive punishment in before the Mir fight. That's not too bad given 38 fights against almost uniformly high level competition. Especially since he won two of those.
2/18/10 2:19 AM
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the chief
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Nog has been my favorite fighter for almost 10 years.
2/18/10 2:25 AM
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boonhorse
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I feel privileged to get to see him fight live on Sunday.


WAR NOG!
2/18/10 8:08 AM
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BrainofPJ
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the chief - Nog has been my favorite fighter for almost 10 years.


right on. to me he embodies everything that is good about professional sports and martial arts.
2/18/10 10:19 AM
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whistleblower
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On My Knees for Doom - Despite the controversial decisions, I would certainly rank Dan Henderson ahead of Sak

What? Wow. That's a hell of a "Despite" there - especially since (as you well know) Hendo has in fact had more controversial decisions go his way than anyone else in MMA history. Actually, FAR more.

Every other all-time great has had one or two go his way. (For example, Nog had Ricco, Sak had Mezger.) Hendo has had about 8 of those fights which were at least controversial in some way - and at the very least, questioned at the time (even if you personally agreed with them). To the point where it wouldn't have been entirely unreasonable if they had even gone the other way.

(And if just some of them had gone the other way - as they reasonably could have or even should have - then his record now would look a lot less gaudy in fightfinder-hindsight, with fewer big-name wins on it. Which would then be far less likely to mislead the noobs who still go on about how "Hendo beat Nog"!)

Hendo was also never actually a consistently dominant force throughout his career, much less ever the singularly indisputable #1 in the sport - the way Sak (and Nog) at least once were. Hendo was actually never a dominating champion of any kind - having only closely (and controversially) scraped his way to the UFC 200 tournament championship, then even more controversially to the RINGS KoK championship, and edged out another contested decision over Busta to win the Pride 183 Championship.

In fact, the only time Hendo ever dominantly won a major championship was the official Pride 205 title from Wanderlei. And Hendo never actually reigned as a champion either definitively or for-long, at any weight (where he lost to Rampage in the unification fight right after winning the 205 title, and lost to Misaki in a non-title fight soon after winning the 183 title).

The only time Hendo has ever decisively beaten even two top opponents in a row were Vitor and Wanderlei (although Vitor was on a real downslide at that point) - unless you want to also count Chonan and Gono in the same night. And Hendo has never even arguably decisively beaten 3 top opponents in a row in his entire career.

Again, Hendo never really consistently dominated at the highest level at all.

I would still definitely have Hendo ahead of Sak for the decade of the 2000's, though - since Sak really peaked in the year 2000, and then was in decline for much of the rest of that decade.

But overall? Sak was certainly more consistently and significantly dominant than Hendo (who is still without question a legitimate all-time great himself) - and Sak's accomplishments were more monumental at the time, as well as more historically, lastingly impactful.

Plus, completely unlike Hendo, Sakuraba actually DECISIVELY beat most of his top-opponent wins - especially during his preeminent streak (except for Mezger) - which was clearly the greatest run ever up to that point. While Hendo has never had anything close to that kind of dominating run.

Where the list of top opponents whom Hendo has actually decisively, definitively beaten is much shorter than the ones he just has official "wins" over. (But then I'm not telling you something you don't already know.)
2/18/10 7:01 PM
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orcus
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 Henderson was not consistently dominant by any stretch of the imagination.

His first two big wins, over Goes and Newton, were both close and somewhat controversial decisions (actually very controversial in the case of Newton, whom I believe not only slammed Henderson but broke his jaw). His next huge win over Bustamante for the 185 title was very controversial. His win over Kondo was very controversial. His win over Nog was very controversial. His win over Ninja was arguable. Amidst these he lost to Arona, lost to Nog, lost to Wanderlei, lost to Misaki, got tooled by Rogerio. Since then he had the huge win over Wand, good win over Belfort; lost to Anderson and Rampage, controversial win over Franklin.


2/18/10 7:24 PM
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JimmersonzGlove
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 WB & Orcus just agreed?

2/18/10 7:31 PM
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On My Knees for Doom
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whistleblower - 
On My Knees for Doom - Despite the controversial decisions, I would certainly rank Dan Henderson ahead of Sak

What? Wow. That's a hell of a "Despite" there - especially since (as you well know) Hendo has in fact had more controversial decisions go his way than anyone else in MMA history. Actually, FAR more.

Every other all-time great has had one or two go his way. (For example, Nog had Ricco, Sak had Mezger.) Hendo has had about 8 of those fights which were at least controversial in some way - and at the very least, questioned at the time (even if you personally agreed with them). To the point where it wouldn't have been entirely unreasonable if they had even gone the other way.

(And if just some of them had gone the other way - as they reasonably could have or even should have - then his record now would look a lot less gaudy in fightfinder-hindsight, with fewer big-name wins on it. Which would then be far less likely to mislead the noobs who still go on about how "Hendo beat Nog"!)

Hendo was also never actually a consistently dominant force throughout his career, much less ever the singularly indisputable #1 in the sport - the way Sak (and Nog) at least once were. Hendo was actually never a dominating champion of any kind - having only closely (and controversially) scraped his way to the UFC 200 tournament championship, then even more controversially to the RINGS KoK championship, and edged out another contested decision over Busta to win the Pride 183 Championship.

In fact, the only time Hendo ever dominantly won a major championship was the official Pride 205 title from Wanderlei. And Hendo never actually reigned as a champion either definitively or for-long, at any weight (where he lost to Rampage in the unification fight right after winning the 205 title, and lost to Misaki in a non-title fight soon after winning the 183 title).

The only time Hendo has ever decisively beaten even two top opponents in a row were Vitor and Wanderlei (although Vitor was on a real downslide at that point) - unless you want to also count Chonan and Gono in the same night. And Hendo has never even arguably decisively beaten 3 top opponents in a row in his entire career.

Again, Hendo never really consistently dominated at the highest level at all.

I would still definitely have Hendo ahead of Sak for the decade of the 2000's, though - since Sak really peaked in the year 2000, and then was in decline for much of the rest of that decade.

But overall? Sak was certainly more consistently and significantly dominant than Hendo (who is still without question a legitimate all-time great himself) - and Sak's accomplishments were more monumental at the time, as well as more historically, lastingly impactful.

Plus, completely unlike Hendo, Sakuraba actually DECISIVELY beat most of his top-opponent wins - especially during his preeminent streak (except for Mezger) - which was clearly the greatest run ever up to that point. While Hendo has never had anything close to that kind of dominating run.

Where the list of top opponents whom Hendo has actually decisively, definitively beaten is much shorter than the ones he just has official "wins" over. (But then I'm not telling you something you don't already know.)

 WB, you should read the rest of my post because while the idea of ranking Hendo over Sak seems counterintuitive, I contend that Sak's high rankings on many people's list are rooted far more in sentiment than reality. 

I'm certainly no great Hendo apologist, but the issue you're raising is one you could apply to almost all of the TQ guys.  The Team Quest Style as practiced by Randy, Lindland, Henderson and even Sonnen has yielded very few "decisive" victories.  Ironically, of those four, Henderson has been the most consistently exciting in his fights and has probably also demonstrated the most well roundedness.  Interestingly, until his recent run in the UFC I always considered him the worst wrestler of the 4 as well.  I say this because there is no high level wrestler with as many accolades as Hendo in ALL of MMA who has been put on his butt or back via scramble or takedown.  For some reason the Rampage and Anderson fights seemed to really motivate him to get back on his wrestling grind, but of course he still came up short.

That Henderson's fights were close is a testament to the fact that he fought a lot of the best guys around and that he didn't ever really acquire a finishing skill-set besides winging hooks.  We've known ever since The Contenders that Hendo was no submission dynamo, but he became credible enough at defending them over the years to save himself when the going got tough.  His relentless defense and scrambling is what made a lot of his fights such back and forth affairs and often so exciting whereas most of the other TQ guys have had pure snoozers.  His iron chin also did him a lot of favors over the years as well.  It's easy to discredit him because of the tightness of the decisions, but NONE of those close decisions had anything to do with Dan imo.  He's never been a fighter who fought safe.  He's just hung in there.  As far as we know, he doesn't have a benefactor who's paying off the judges, so we can't really blame him for his controversial or questionable wins.  We can certainly scrutinize them carefully when evaluating where he ranks as an all-time great, but to say he doesn't belong is unfair.

The only time I ever saw Hendo coast was against Misaki and he paid the price for it.  He even managed to turn his fight with Arona (which on paper should've been a mega-snoozer) into a fairly interesting and technical match.

And if we're going to say you have to decisively beat two top opponents back to back, what ranked guys did Sak ever beat?  The Gracie run he went on was impressive, but I don't think we can say any of the four were top ranked at any weight at the time, though they were legends.  But by that criteria, did Tito's victory over Shamrock at UFC 40 elevate him to being one of the greatest of all time or did it just make him very popular?
2/18/10 7:32 PM
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whistleblower
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Musashi - Yeah, I have never been a big fan of Nog's. He always took way too much punishment to appreciate his game.

Although I agree that at this point, Nog has probably accumulated "way too much punishment" over the years - he wasn't "always" like that. Not at all.

Actually, when Nog was at his most dominant peak, on top of the MMA world and reigning as the absolute best and #1 - up until the Fedor fight, the only time he had really taken what could be called "way too much punishment" had been the Sapp fight. Which ended up actually further elevating Nog's mythic standing - and was the fight which first showed how resiliently, transcendently tough and game Nog really was.

That was the first really serious, dangerous adversity he had ever suffered (and it doesn't get much worse than a raging 375 lb. beast power-bombing you right onto your neck) - and Nog not only survived and weathered the storm, but came back to pull off an improbable, mind-blowing submission win (in an epic fight hailed by many as the greatest-ever up to that point).

But before that fight, Nog had absorbed very little sustained damage at all. Again, Nog wasn't always the guy who took "way too much punishment" - who then had to come back to somehow pull off the win. (As he's become perceived to be in later years, especially the last few.)

Throughout Nog's original run of supremacy, after he really started to emerge as elite-level dominant - starting with emphatically winning the RINGS KoK, then finishing the #1 Coleman, then decisively beating a top-3 Herring to become Pride HW Champ, and then continuing to dominate throughout most of his Championship reign - Nog was a juggernaut.

He was never overpowering like Fedor subsequently was - but nevertheless, Nog at that point was still the guy who would almost inevitably finish you, after having already mostly handled the fight anyway (and without much danger and damage incurred). He was beating everyone decisively then, if not outclassing them. In fact, by then, the only guy he hadn't finished in a couple of years had been Herring - in the greatest, most well-rounded, and highest-level skilled HW fight ever up to that point.

Nog used to dominate.

(It's just that the fights that people now most immediately associate with Nog are ones where he did take a beating - the iconic Fedor and Cro Cop fights, and more recently the Herring knockdown, Sylvia beatdown, and Mir destruction. But once upon a time, pre-Fedor, Nog was known for dishing out easily more than he was generally taking.)
2/18/10 7:47 PM
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On My Knees for Doom
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 ^Another point to add to that was the fact that Nog was JUST doing BJJ for several of his fights.  He was the Maia or Aoki before those guys came around.  He didn't really start getting into boxing until around the Herring fight and his much ballyhooed training with the Cuban boxing team didn't happen until still later.

In fact, the Cuban boxing team is singularly responsible for much of Nog's problems later in his career because in training with them he learned that not only could he take a punch but that he wasn't half bad according to them.  So he decided to try slugging it out on several occasions where he shouldn't have (for example the second Fedor fight) and sustaining a lot more damage than he had to.  As Sam Sheridan quoted Bebeo Duarte saying while watching the Fedor fight "he needs to go to the Chao!"  But his whole game plan had been to stand with Fedor after weathering a G&P storm in their first fight and unfortunately Fedor was just quicker and hit harder.  Nog did become a good technical boxer after training with the Cubans, but his speed has always been lackluster.

THOSE GOD-DANGED COMMIES!!!
2/18/10 8:35 PM
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whistleblower
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Musashi - imo he was the first elite big BJJer in MMA. Before him it was guys like Carlos Barreto, Conan Silveria, etc. - they all sucked.

Although you're ultimately right about Nog being "the first elite big BJJer in MMA" - it's somewhat disproportionate to say "they all sucked." Barreto was actually a real bad ass in Brazilian vale tudo events before coming over to the UFC, where he actually entered with quite a bit of hype and expectation behind him - as a potential world-beater. He was big, rangy, and was a top Carlson Team BB - who could also throw some bombs - and seemed athletic and dangerous in all areas, and had really been impressively dominant in Brazil. Seemed like a juggernaut.

Then he got shockingly handled by Beneteau, who was just supposed to be a walkover opponent for him in the first round - to then set up the expected (and highly anticipated) showdown between Barreto and Kerr in the final. Oops. So yeah, Barreto ended up being a huge disappointment at that event, and never made much of a splash in MMA/NHB again (after an extremely impressive and promising early run in Brazil) - and eventually even became a scrub. (Who then really "sucked.")

Conan was actually supposed to be one of Carlson's top BB's as well, and did win Extreme Fighting - although Royce and the Helio side of the family certainly called his skills into question, and said he was more size and strength than technique. But back then even guys like Traven, who while a top BJJ BB did not hold up well at all in modern MMA - and even Morais, whose freakishly gigantic size itself, combined with his blue-belt-level skills - were still more than enough to steamroll the competition in early-era NHB. They certainly hadn't "sucked" then - just "sucked" as the sport evolved, and especially compared to modern standards.

But yeah, Nog really was "the first elite big BJJer in MMA" - the first truly great BJJ-based, true HW in MMA history (where the greatest HW's ever before Nog had been Igor and Coleman - and the closest thing to a great BJJ HW in MMA probably would have been Sperry, who was ultimately not a true HW).

But in addition to having the BJJ skills and the size - Nog also represented the next-level evolution for a BJJ-based fighter in MMA. Because Nog wasn't just BJJ at all. He developed high-level technical boxing skills as well, and had decent-enough TD's - to go along with his base of submissions. His BTT leader Busta had really been the forerunner of that BJJ-based well-roundedness - but Nog then took it to another level of elite and consistent dominance in transitioning it to MMA.

Nog wasn't a World Champion in sport-BJJ or sub-grappling - and there were MUCH more highly credentialed BJJ-ers than Nog, but who didn't end up with even a fraction of Nog's success in MMA. Because Nog applied his BJJ to MMA, and put it together with everything else better than any other BJJ-er ever has, both before and since.

But Nog didn't have just the physical, well-rounded technical skills, both on the ground and standing - he also had the intangibles. The toughness (both mental and physical) and heart (not to mention, the chin) - a fearless, indomitable fighting spirit - to go along with all the technical skills and attributes.

At his peak, Nog was the ultimate combination of BJJ and boxing skills - plus resiliency, mental and physical toughness, and gameness that you just can't teach. He was the right mix of well-rounded technicality and both physical skills and psychological attributes that was enough to become the new, preeminent evolution of the BJJ fighter in MMA - and the best MMA fighter ever up to that point.
2/18/10 9:06 PM
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the Brazilian
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good thread

Nog may have fallen in the CURRENT rankings after his performance vs. Mir but other than that he has had an AMAZING career and without a doubt other than Fedor he is the greatest HW fighter in the history of MMA BY FAR
2/18/10 9:31 PM
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whistleblower
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fiercedragon - you could make a serious case for Dan Henderson...champ in 2 divisions,wins over champs in 4 divisions,fights in 3 divisions,win over Nog,only man to hold major titles in 2 division simultaneously...

See, this is exactly what I was talking about. People look at fightfinder and can see all those "wins over champs in 4 divisions" (when only one of them, over Wanderlei, was actually not just decisive, but the only uncontroversial one there) - and especially notice the "win over Nog" (LOL) - and presumptively conclude, wow Hendo must have really been dominant at the highest level throughout the decade!

Except he really wasn't.

Actually, it's really not even reasonable for Hendo to even possibly be at #2 - and certainly not ahead of Nog.

Hendo never dominated even nearly as consistently or at as high a level as Nog did throughout the entire decade. Seriously, it's not even close.

Nog decisively beat most of the top opponents he has wins over (aside from Ricco) - Hendo didn't. Nog continuously stayed at the top of his division throughout the decade - Hendo didn't.

Nog was a perennial top-3 fighter, and always Championship-level relevant in his division. Hendo wasn't. (And had even dropped out of the top 10 at times - and wasn't even close to as continuously top-3 as Nog was.)

So Nog not only beat more top opponents more consistently - but also beat them FAR more decisively. While also losing fewer times, to even better opponents than Hendo did. (Although Hendo himself only lost generally to the best as well - but Nog has only definitively lost to Fedor, Mir, and very closely to Barnett.)

Nog also essentially outfought Hendo twice. (But lost an EXTREMELY dubious decision in one of them - in a fight which the vast majority, even most Hendo fans, didn't feel Hendo really "won.")

So while you see the "win over Nog" on fightfinder (just as you do several other top-name wins on Hendo's record) - did you actually see the fight itself?

If so, then please tell us what exactly Hendo did to definitively earn the "win over Nog" - or how Hendo really beat Nog at all? Can you tell us anything about the fight - or who actually outfought whom in it?

By no standard of measure or definitive basis - whether by their overall careers, their consistency at the top, the quality of their wins and losses, their history of actually decisively beating opponents and perennially dominating a division, or even by their head-to-head performances alone - is Hendo even possibly ahead of Nog.

The only distinction that Hendo holds which makes him stand out the most is the multiple-weight class championships - and even then, Hendo was never a consistently dominating champion at all, in any weight. And not even close to what Nog once was - where for a while, Nog was the thoroughly dominating, undisputed #1 (which Hendo never was) - and then still stayed the longest-reigning top-3/top-5 fighter ever (far more consistently and dominantly than Hendo).
2/18/10 9:54 PM
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whistleblower
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Musashi - Hendo was most certainly consistently dominant throughout his career. He was never an 'unbeatable force' like Fedor, Nog, Machida, Silva, etc. but he is an iron horse with overall consistent dominant performances since day one.

LOL.
orcus - Henderson was not consistently dominant by any stretch of the imagination.

His first two big wins, over Goes and Newton, were both close and somewhat controversial decisions (actually very controversial in the case of Newton, whom I believe not only slammed Henderson but broke his jaw). His next huge win over Bustamante for the 185 title was very controversial. His win over Kondo was very controversial. His win over Nog was very controversial. His win over Ninja was arguable. Amidst these he lost to Arona, lost to Nog, lost to Wanderlei, lost to Misaki, got tooled by Rogerio. Since then he had the huge win over Wand, good win over Belfort; lost to Anderson and Rampage, controversial win over Franklin.

Holy shit. I 100% agree with orcus. This might very possibly be the most thoroughly correct orcus post ever (or at least for the last several years).

So I guess you can actually refrain from distortive spin when it comes to describing fights - as long as they're not Fedor's, of course. (But the thing is I've actually seen you cite the Hendo-Nog fight before as a case against Fedor - saying Fedor didn't do anything Hendo couldn't do as well. Except why don't you ever acknowledge there, as you do here, the reality that Hendo's "win over Nog was very controversial"?

Because it doesn't fit your agenda in that case, right? I guess you are only accurately representative when you don't have a fixated bias to pursue.)

But still, holy shit @ historical accuracy from orcus of all people. The world ends tomorrow.
2/18/10 11:54 PM
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On My Knees for Doom
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whistleblower - 
Musashi - imo he was the first elite big BJJer in MMA. Before him it was guys like Carlos Barreto, Conan Silveria, etc. - they all sucked.

Although you're ultimately right about Nog being "the first elite big BJJer in MMA" - it's somewhat disproportionate to say "they all sucked." Barreto was actually a real bad ass in Brazilian vale tudo events before coming over to the UFC, where he actually entered with quite a bit of hype and expectation behind him - as a potential world-beater. He was big, rangy, and was a top Carlson Team BB - who could also throw some bombs - and seemed athletic and dangerous in all areas, and had really been impressively dominant in Brazil. Seemed like a juggernaut.

Then he got shockingly handled by Beneteau, who was just supposed to be a walkover opponent for him in the first round - to then set up the expected (and highly anticipated) showdown between Barreto and Kerr in the final. Oops. So yeah, Barreto ended up being a huge disappointment at that event, and never made much of a splash in MMA/NHB again (after an extremely impressive and promising early run in Brazil) - and eventually even became a scrub. (Who then really "sucked.")

Conan was actually supposed to be one of Carlson's top BB's as well, and did win Extreme Fighting - although Royce and the Helio side of the family certainly called his skills into question, and said he was more size and strength than technique. But back then even guys like Traven, who while a top BJJ BB did not hold up well at all in modern MMA - and even Morais, whose freakishly gigantic size itself, combined with his blue-belt-level skills - were still more than enough to steamroll the competition in early-era NHB. They certainly hadn't "sucked" then - just "sucked" as the sport evolved, and especially compared to modern standards.

But yeah, Nog really was "the first elite big BJJer in MMA" - the first truly great BJJ-based, true HW in MMA history (where the greatest HW's ever before Nog had been Igor and Coleman - and the closest thing to a great BJJ HW in MMA probably would have been Sperry, who was ultimately not a true HW).

But in addition to having the BJJ skills and the size - Nog also represented the next-level evolution for a BJJ-based fighter in MMA. Because Nog wasn't just BJJ at all. He developed high-level technical boxing skills as well, and had decent-enough TD's - to go along with his base of submissions. His BTT leader Busta had really been the forerunner of that BJJ-based well-roundedness - but Nog then took it to another level of elite and consistent dominance in transitioning it to MMA.

Nog wasn't a World Champion in sport-BJJ or sub-grappling - and there were MUCH more highly credentialed BJJ-ers than Nog, but who didn't end up with even a fraction of Nog's success in MMA. Because Nog applied his BJJ to MMA, and put it together with everything else better than any other BJJ-er ever has, both before and since.

But Nog didn't have just the physical, well-rounded technical skills, both on the ground and standing - he also had the intangibles. The toughness (both mental and physical) and heart (not to mention, the chin) - a fearless, indomitable fighting spirit - to go along with all the technical skills and attributes.

At his peak, Nog was the ultimate combination of BJJ and boxing skills - plus resiliency, mental and physical toughness, and gameness that you just can't teach. He was the right mix of well-rounded technicality and both physical skills and psychological attributes that was enough to become the new, preeminent evolution of the BJJ fighter in MMA - and the best MMA fighter ever up to that point.
I have a few quibbles with the accuracy in this post.  First off, "shockingly handled" is a little bit of an exaggeration.  The fight was very close and Beneteau edged out a win, setting a prototype for wrestlers nullifying BJJers for years to come, albeit in ridiculous spandex pants that he apparently passed down to Randy Couture for UFC Japan (ugh).  Barreto was one of my favorite fighters for some reason in those early days.  I think it was because of his basketball player build and maybe later because of the iconic image of him shirtless parading Carlson around  the tatame on his shoulders after Wallid choked Royce unconscious (self-beep!).  In any case, his fight with Randleman really established him as THE jiu jitsu guy to watch at HW and I was really crestfallen when Beneteau edged him out and then wasted everyone's time by dropping out leaving Mark Kerr with arguably the easiest tournament field in the history of MMA (Cason & Stott could probably have been beaten by 80% of the UG).

Conan was a controversial figure from his first EF performance.  There were always doubts about his BJJ pedigree and it wasn't just because he was using his fists to win.  When Gracie Torrance started their whole "black belt on the plane" accusations, it was always directed at Carlson's pushing of Vitor and Conan.  Neither were considered credible BJJ bbs, though Vitor at least was acknowledged to have some considerable talent (though certainly not "the best in the world on the ground with Rickson Gracie" LMAO as someone--Blatnick? Goldberg?--said. 

Either way, Nog was indisputably the first high level (but not championship caliber) BJJ bb to ever translate his skill-set to MMA and in the process become a dominant champ. 
 
While Nog did become well-rounded, that didn't really happen until his title fight with Herring and honestly it didn't do him any favors the way it did for Bustamante as I detailed above.  In fact, those dang Communistas probably cost Nog more than a few brain cells.


2/19/10 1:20 AM
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whistleblower
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Musashi - WTF do you think you're laughing about?

I'm laughing about you claiming that Hendo had "overall consistent dominant performances since day one." Remember that?

Which is just ridiculous. I don't care even if you personally agreed with any/some/all of the decisions or not - no way can any reasonable person say that Hendo has had "consistent dominant performances" against most of the top opponents he's faced.

No way were his wins over Goes and Newton "dominant" (which won him the UFC 200 tournament championship).

No way were his wins over Babalu and especially Nog "dominant" as well (to then win the RINGS KoK).

No way were Hendo's win over Busta in the rematch "dominant" either (to then win the Pride 183 Championship - his third major title which he won in certainly less than "dominant" fashion).

Nor were Hendo's wins over Kondo, Ninja, and Franklin "dominant" as well.

So about 8 of Hendo's wins were at least questionable - and at the very least, even if you agreed with them, certainly not "dominant" at all.
Musashi - Perhaps you forgot the part about him maintaining a place in the top 10 rankings EVERY SINGLE YEAR of his entire MMA career (save for his rookie year)? Perhaps this little recap of the various rankings Dan has held every year (at one point or another) since first fighting in the UFC will refresh your memory.

Uh, why do you think I specifically said that Hendo (and Randy) have "had the most lasting top level longevity"? But ultimately, that it was not nearly as continuously OR as highly dominating as Nog's has been.

Hendo may have been top-10 "at one point or another" in "EVERY SINGLE YEAR of his entire MMA career" - but he certainly wasn't even close to as continuously top-3 and top-5 as Nog was - nor was he ever dominantly, indisputably #1 like Nog once was.

And there were also points in those years when Hendo wasn't always even top-10. He certainly wasn't top-10 at 205 after getting dominated by Li'l Nog (after already barely scraping by Kondo in a very controversial decision). (Plus he hadn't even competed at 185 once in his entire career up to then, to actually deserve a ranking there either.)

And ultimately, even when it comes to his rankings, much of Hendo's rankings were actually based on close and questionable decisions (since most of his top wins have been so) - instead of on "dominant performances since day one" and then throughout his career. If just a few of those decisions go the other way - as they reasonably could have, or even should have (since they were not decisive or "dominant" at all) - then Hendo would have certainly been lower "ranked" or even unranked (outside the top 10) for more points in time than he actually was.

Hendo consistently decisioned - he wasn't consistently "dominant."
2/19/10 1:39 AM
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orcus
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 "Perhaps you forgot the part about him maintaining a place in the top 10 rankings EVERY SINGLE YEAR of his entire MMA career"

Getting one big win ever year or so, many of them highly controversial, is hardly "consistent dominance".

Pretty simple really -- which weight classes did he consistently dominate and when?
2/19/10 3:55 AM
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whistleblower
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Musashi - Last I checked, the top level, elite MMA fighters in the world (your words) are the dominant fighters of the MMA world.

It's certainly not my words that being "elite" is one and the same with being "dominant." There is definitely a distinct difference between the two.

Hendo consistently at least hanging with elite competition (and even decisively beating some) makes him "elite."

But Hendo consistently NOT decisively or even clearly beating elite competition by definition makes him NOT consistently "dominant." How can someone be "consistently dominant" - when he didn't actually consistently dominate?
Musashi - So yeah, that is why I said that Dan has been consistently dominant throughout his career. And he has.

If you could point out a streak or a stretch of time from "throughout his career" where Hendo actually consistently dominated top opponents - or consistently dominated a division for any period - please, do so.

Otherwise, according to you:

Did NOT consistently dominate = "consistently dominant"
2/19/10 9:28 AM
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Jons Forsberg
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whistleblower - 
fiercedragon - you could make a serious case for Dan Henderson...champ in 2 divisions,wins over champs in 4 divisions,fights in 3 divisions,win over Nog,only man to hold major titles in 2 division simultaneously...

See, this is exactly what I was talking about. People look at fightfinder and can see all those "wins over champs in 4 divisions" (when only one of them, over Wanderlei, was actually not just decisive, but the only uncontroversial one there) - and especially notice the "win over Nog" (LOL) - and presumptively conclude, wow Hendo must have really been dominant at the highest level throughout the decade!

Except he really wasn't.




I'd say Hendo was the most game fighter in MMA history. He could hang against the best guys in 3 weight classes, but was never able to dominate any of them.
2/19/10 9:56 AM
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orcus
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 "Holding the titles he held, beating the people he beat and maintaining elite top ten status for well over a decade is what we are talking about kids."

How was he elite top 10 for a decade? From 2001 to 2005 his ONLY significant win was Ninja, and that was yet another arguable decision.  Even if he was, being top 10 isn't "dominating".

As for "holding" titles, he never did. He had exactly one title defense, against Misaki, then in his very next fight *lost* to Misaki. In his next 185 fight he lost to Anderson. He won the 205 title from Wand and then immediately lost it to Rampage.

2/19/10 9:58 AM
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Trackman 2
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orcus quit trolling and hating
2/19/10 10:22 AM
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Trackman 2
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Edited: 02/19/10 11:14 AM
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Give Henderson the respect he deserves. He owns 3 brutal Kos against 3 MMA legends(Renzo, Busta, Wand) His brutal KO of Busta was a matchup of then top lb for lb fighters in the sport. The first man to ever KO a Gracie. The 2nd guy to KO Wand in a fight. Outweighed in many of his fights. Never had an easy fight. His losses were to much bigger guys and the very best in the sport.(Arona, Wand, Rampage, Big Nog had 40LBS on him) Never KOd or TKOd despite fighting arguably the best competition ever in the sport. Did not get destroyed when fed to the lions like Sakuraba did. One of the most durable fighters ever with a chin like no other.
2/19/10 10:44 AM
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orcus
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 "Nog started the decade great, but what has he done in the last 4 years to warrant this."

Beat Josh Barnett, beat Werdum, choked out Tim Sylvia, destroyed Randy.

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