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UnderGround Forums >> Nog was the #2 Fighter of the Decade


2/19/10 2:28 PM
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Kakkarotto_san
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orcus -  "Nog started the decade great, but what has he done in the last 4 years to warrant this."

Beat Josh Barnett, beat Werdum, choked out Tim Sylvia, destroyed Randy.



Beat me to it. Nog has some great wins in the last four years. His loss to Barnett was a *very* close decision that could have gone either way and although his loss to Mir was bad, it's ridiculous to say he hasn't done anything in the last 4 years.
2/19/10 4:23 PM
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Lord Kancho
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whistleblower - 
Musashi - Hendo was most certainly consistently dominant throughout his career. He was never an 'unbeatable force' like Fedor, Nog, Machida, Silva, etc. but he is an iron horse with overall consistent dominant performances since day one.

LOL.
orcus - Henderson was not consistently dominant by any stretch of the imagination.

His first two big wins, over Goes and Newton, were both close and somewhat controversial decisions (actually very controversial in the case of Newton, whom I believe not only slammed Henderson but broke his jaw). His next huge win over Bustamante for the 185 title was very controversial. His win over Kondo was very controversial. His win over Nog was very controversial. His win over Ninja was arguable. Amidst these he lost to Arona, lost to Nog, lost to Wanderlei, lost to Misaki, got tooled by Rogerio. Since then he had the huge win over Wand, good win over Belfort; lost to Anderson and Rampage, controversial win over Franklin.

Holy shit. I 100% agree with orcus. This might very possibly be the most thoroughly correct orcus post ever (or at least for the last several years).

So I guess you can actually refrain from distortive spin when it comes to describing fights - as long as they're not Fedor's, of course. (But the thing is I've actually seen you cite the Hendo-Nog fight before as a case against Fedor - saying Fedor didn't do anything Hendo couldn't do as well. Except why don't you ever acknowledge there, as you do here, the reality that Hendo's "win over Nog was very controversial"?

Because it doesn't fit your agenda in that case, right? I guess you are only accurately representative when you don't have a fixated bias to pursue.)

But still, holy shit @ historical accuracy from orcus of all people. The world ends tomorrow.


I don't know, that post is so FightFinder.

Amidst these he lost to Arona, lost to Nog, lost to Wanderlei, lost to Misaki, got tooled by Rogerio. Since then he had the huge win over Wand, good win over Belfort; lost to Anderson and Rampage, controversial win over Franklin.


See? He didn't once mention who was ranked where and what each victory meant to the division or the development of the sport, it was just beat x, beat y, lost to z.

No depth, no analysis. Just Fightfinder.
2/19/10 5:35 PM
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whistleblower
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On My Knees for Doom - And if we're going to say you have to decisively beat two top opponents back to back, what ranked guys did Sak ever beat?

What??? Wow. So Vitor and Braga were not "top opponents" at the time? Nor Conan and Newton? Holy crap. WTF.

(And btw, I specifically did not use the phrase "back to back" for a reason. I meant Hendo never decisively beat more than 2 top opponents even in a single streak - whether "back to back" [i.e., consecutively] or even separated by non-top-opponents in between, within a larger row or sustained period. But accordingly, I'll count the Goes "draw" as a de facto loss for Sak - which would then break up his longer official unbeaten streak, which would include his decisive wins over Conan, Newton, Vitor, and Braga. I also won't count the Mezger "win" in that overall run for the same reason.)

Let's start with Conan. Yes, Conan had already lost the Extreme Fighting HW Championship to Mo in a shocking (and revolutionary) upset - but Conan was still easily a credible top-level HW at the time. Again, back then, just being a BJJ BB in itself was enough to be not just top-level, but even generally a huge favorite - and seriously, what big, strong Carlson BB wouldn't have been considered top-level in that era? Again, even Barreto was. So were Traven and even a non-BB Morais as well.

Hell, the only fighter to ever submit a BJJ BB in international MMA competition at that point was still Sato (over Botelho and Lewis) - and Sato didn't have to deal with a 50 lb. weight advantage in addition to the BB, like Sak did. So Conan was rightfully a very heavy (literally and figuratively) favorite to just steamroll Sak at the time (where they even had to inflate Sak's weight just to qualify him for that HW tournament). That was a definite top-level win for that era.

Newton was also a top under-HW at the time. He very arguably should have won the UFC 200 tournament over Hendo, and had also easily submitted the reigning Shooto 187 champion in Erik Paulson in a non-title fight. Newton thus also rightfully went in as the favorite over Sak at that point.

The win over Newton is actually what first confirmed that Sak might really be more long-term legit - and not just a fluke or a flash-in-the-pan with his one big win over Conan.

Then came the "draw" to Goes (another top under-HW at the time) which, if there had been judges for that fight, would have most likely ended up in a decision for Goes (by outpointing with upkicks off his back), where even Sak himself stated that he felt he lost.

But then Sakuraba rebounded by decisively, shockingly upsetting Vitor - who had just annihilated Wanderlei and was then considered the new juggernaut now at 200, and the most eminent top contender for Frank Shamrock. Actually, aside from Frank himself, there would have been no bigger win possible at under-HW at that point than Vitor.

And Braga was definitely, easily a top 200-er at the time (who has now become probably Sak's most overlooked win ever, by far) - where some Brazilians were even calling him a tougher fight than Vitor. Braga had not only submitted Horn, but really beat up Funaki (in what was just supposed to be a warm-up for Rickson - oops) where Braga would have clearly won a decision over Funaki had there been judges.

You seriously cannot be dismissing Braga as a "top opponent" at that point. I'm sure you know better than that. At the time, he was unquestionably so.

And overall, Sak decisively beat more top-level, significant opponents during his run than anyone else ever had up to that point. He finished or dominated Conan, Vitor, Braga, Newton, Royce, Renzo, Royler, and Ryan in that whole, continuous, all-time-great streak. His run was absolutely unprecedented, revolutionary, and unparalleled at the time.

(And compared to Hendo, Hendo never even arguably had a run like that in his entire career. Hendo has definitely had greater longevity overall. But Hendo didn't have the more historically significant wins, or more consistently decisive ones over meaningful top opponents at the time - or a more definingly dominating period at any time.)
2/19/10 6:13 PM
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whistleblower
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On My Knees for Doom - The Gracie run he went on was impressive, but I don't think we can say any of the four were top ranked at any weight at the time, though they were legends. But by that criteria, did Tito's victory over Shamrock at UFC 40 elevate him to being one of the greatest of all time or did it just make him very popular?

Wow, these are just rather revisionist standards now. And very anachronistic rankings "criteria" being imposed.

Back then it meant nothing that the Gracies weren't technically "top ranked at any weight at the time." (Although Rickson was actually still perennially, automatically ranked #1 by ADCC, ha-ha.)

The Gracies were "legends" (as you noted) - and each of them were truly significant wins in that era. (Albeit by the time of the Ryan fight, the revolutionary impact and novelty had somewhat passed, especially since Ryan was also the least legendary and accomplished of the 4 - and Sakuraba had already beaten 3.)

At that time, Royce was still the ultimate legend in the sport (aside from Rickson). Royce was still the mythic, undefeated, original Man. There was very arguably no bigger, more meaningful win possible - no more significant opponent out there - in the entire sport at the time, except for Rickson. No one, absolutely no reasonable person back then, was downgrading the Royce-Sak matchup because Royce wasn't technically "top ranked at any weight at the time."

And Renzo had been the other third of that original, invincible ruling Gracie triumvirate, along with Rickson and Royce. Both the wins over Royce and Renzo were just huge at the time - and more meaningful than most, if not more than almost every, other win over any "ranked" contender could have been at that time.

Even the Royler win was extremely significant and even revolutionary at that point as well. The Gracies were actually calling it the "Fight of the Century" and the next level of Kimura-Helio. That was the fight that finally, definitively shattered two critical myths in MMA (largely originated by the Gracies themselves) - one, that size doesn't matter - and two, that the Gracies were still ultimately unbeatable.

(Although Royler still wasn't definitively finished - and that fight should have been allowed to go on to the official time-limit draw, and thereby preserved the "undefeated" Gracie record. But nevertheless, it was still revolutionary in that it was certainly the first time that a Gracie had ever been so thoroughly, easily dominated in a fight. Thereby emphatically proving that, yes, size did matter - and no, GJJ was not enough to overcome it when the much bigger opponent was also highly skilled himself.)

Would you have seriously downplayed Rickson as a win for Sakuraba then, because Rickson should not have been technically "ranked"? Of course not. Beating Rickson would have almost certainly been the biggest win ever in MMA history.

(And btw, hell yes, Tito's first win over Ken was big at the time as well - very arguably his biggest win ever. It also actually helped definitively cement Tito's standing at the top of the 205 rankings then. It was without question still a relevant, major win [completely unlike the two meaningless rematches] - just like how Ken-Frye had still been big at the time as well. And how Ken-Igor would have been just mind-blowing had it actually gone through, too.)

You are judging the significance of certain wins in that era, around the beginning of the decade, too anachronistically by the "rankings" standards of more modern-era MMA. It is out-of-context distortive to take a "rankings"-centered sensibility (which did not fully exist back then, even nearly as much as it does today) - and then retroactively superimpose that standard on what was still a very different era at the time. (Hell, even weight classes themselves were still murky, incipient, and not nearly as established and developed as they would become later in the decade.)

A win over Rickson back then (regardless of ranking) would have been as big at that time as a win over Fedor (the longest-reigning #1 ranked) would be today. Likewise, the win over Royce was arguably the biggest, most significant win in MMA history to that point - regardless of ranking.
2/19/10 6:34 PM
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whistleblower
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Trackman 2 - Give Henderson the respect he deserves. He owns 3 brutal Kos against 3 MMA legends(Renzo, Busta, Wand) His brutal KO of Busta was a matchup of then top lb for lb fighters in the sport. The first man to ever KO a Gracie. The 2nd guy to KO Wand in a fight. Outweighed in many of his fights. Never had an easy fight. His losses were to much bigger guys and the very best in the sport.(Arona, Wand, Rampage, Big Nog had 40LBS on him) Never KOd or TKOd despite fighting arguably the best competition ever in the sport. Did not get destroyed when fed to the lions like Sakuraba did. One of the most durable fighters ever with a chin like no other.

Very true. Hendo has consistently at least faced and usually hung with the best, even those who were bigger than him (and the 3 KO wins over Wanderlei, Busta, and Renzo were huge at the time - his biggest, dominant wins ever) - and Hendo is still without question one of the all-time greats, one of the 15 greatest ever, and definitely one of the 10 greatest for the decade.

But not even reasonably ahead of Nog or at #2. Hendo never consistently dominated for any sustained period at any point, and especially not throughout the entire decade - and not even nearly as consistently AND at as high a level as Nog did. It's really not even close.

Was Hendo consistently elite and top-10-level? Yes.

Was he consistently dominant? No.

More so than Nog? Not even arguably.

But you're not even claiming that, are you? Likewise, nor am I claiming (nor do I think anyone else is) that Hendo is still not an unquestionable all-time great as well.
2/19/10 8:36 PM
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whistleblower
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fiercedragon - +1 Dan also doesn't get much credit for beating nog, and i really don't know why.

Uh, because he didn't really "beat" Nog? (And you would "know why" he therefore "doesn't get much credit" for it, if you actually saw the fight itself. Have you?)
fiercedragon - whistleblower will quote every single source to say whose ranking was what,but when 2of3 judges agree nog lost they're wrong b/c it doesn't support the arguement of whistleblower.

Seriously, you're just stupid (as usual). The "arguement" here isn't whether Hendo got the decision over Nog - no one's arguing that fact. What EVERYONE is arguing, though, is whether he deserved to.

And the only "source" I'm citing here is the only one that actually matters for that "arguement" - the fight itself. From actually having seen the fight. Again, have you?

If so, then please tell us what exactly Hendo did in that fight to actually earn or deserve the decision - or how Hendo really "beat" Nog at all? Can you tell us anything about the fight - and who actually outfought whom in it?

(And btw, do you even know what the judging criteria for RINGS were? If so, you would know that, especially in the specific case of Hendo-Nog, those extremely counter-intuitive standards - along with one rule in particular that weighed pretty heavily into the decision - are what then led to the likewise extremely counter-intuitive result.

Please tell us what that rule might be.)

*prepares for fiercedragon to directly quote my post in its entirety - while not directly responding to it at all (and even entirely ignoring giving specific answers to the specific questions that he actually quotes)*

*also prepares for fiercedragon to claim that he has actually seen the fight - but without being able to describe it at all, or actually come up with what Hendo did to really "beat" Nog*
2/20/10 12:00 AM
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Dznuts
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Thankyou for the post.
2/20/10 12:07 AM
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whistleblower
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NarlyPersianDude - If your only looking at it from the start of the decade, if thats the criteria Nog has a good case. However a decade is all 10 years, Nog started the decade great, but what has he done in the last 4 years to warrant this.

Uh, what? As others have already pointed out - in the last 4 years, Nog has top wins over Barnett, Sylvia, Werdum, and Randy.

In the last 4 years, Anderson has top wins over Hendo, Franklin 2x, Marquardt, and Forrest.

That is NOT "much better than Nog's" (as you put it).

I do agree that Anderson's run in the last 4 years has been better than Nog's, because Anderson has not lost and has dominated far more thoroughly in his division and more highly at #1 - but contrary to your own specific claim, his wins alone are NOT "much," if any, better than Nog's themselves. And certainly not "much better" to the point that it's enough to compensate for the HUGE head-start that Nog had already had for the rest of the decade - for MOST of the decade.

Because yes, exactly as you said - "a decade is all 10 years." And over those 10 years, Nog was MUCH more consistently dominant throughout than Anderson was. There's not even any argument.

Anderson has been a consistently dominant force in MMA since 2006.

Nog has been a consistently dominant force in MMA since 2001 - for virtually the entirety of the decade.

While Anderson was still getting dominated by a can in Takase and flying-heelhooked by a journeyman in Chonan - Nog had already been the dominant #1 and top-3 for YEARS. In fact, by the time Anderson first started and kept on dominating at the highest level of a division - in 2006 - Nog had already been dominantly #1 and top-3 continuously for over half of the decade.

Before 2006, Anderson wouldn't have even been one of the 20 greatest fighters ever - while Nog was already, easily the clear #2 for the decade up to that point. And far, far ahead of Anderson then. Unquestionably.

Yes, Anderson had sporadic dominance before 2006 with a huge win over Sakurai and other big wins over Newton and Horn - but he also then lost decisively to lower-level opponents, and was certainly not consistently dominant overall (and not even in the same league as Nog) for over 6 years of the decade.

So in the last 3.5 years since becoming consistently dominant - has Anderson done enough to jump all the way up from outside the top 20 - even to #2, even ahead of Nog? Are wins over Franklin 2x, Hendo, Forrest, and Marquardt really THAT "much better" than wins over Barnett, Sylvia, Werdum, and Randy?

Has 3.5 years of supreme dominance been enough to surpass 9 years of consistent high-level dominance in that decade?

No.

Yes, Anderson's been the most dominant fighter in MMA for the last 3.5 years. And if you count the decade as being only from 2006-2009 - then yes, Anderson would even be the #1 fighter of that "decade."

But since, as you said, "a decade is all 10 years" - Anderson did not even reasonably catch up to or surpass Nog's decade (i.e., "all 10 years") in just the last 3.5 years alone.

And when it comes to, as you put it, "excellence in the decade" - the only one who had more "excellence" throughout that decade than Nog, was Fedor.
2/20/10 12:49 AM
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DannyOcean
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I want to comment about Sak a little bit. I consider him the #2 GOAT, and he exemplifies a lot of the talking points in this whole thread

A: Historical context is very important. It's important to know how his opponents were considered when he fought them.

B: You also have to go beyond that. You have to look beyond weight class runs or organization belts and look at the other things, like the size disadvantages and gracie fights.

Saku weighed around 180-183 for the majority of his career. He's smaller than many/most WW fighters in the UFC today, and by today's standards would be a WW. Could maybe have gotten some flab off and even stretched for LW.

And during the apex of his career, he was one of the most feared and respected 200/205 fighters in the world, hell, maybe just one of the most feared fighters at any weight in the world. He dominated and decisively beat so many fighters that were so much bigger than him.

Career:

Becomes only the second non BJJ BB to defeat a BJJ BB in MMA with his win over Conan (who had like 60 pounds on him).

Beat Vernon White, who probably had 25 pounds on him.

Beat Carlos Newton, who was coming off a basically even fight with Hendo in a UFC championship match.

His next three fights he drew with Goes, then beat Vitor, and subbed Braga. All three guys had a BJJ BB and a significant weight advantage, at least 20 pounds. Vitor was still the phenom, having just crushed Wandy and only having lost to Randy.

Now starts the Gracie hunting. This is where rankings get thrown out the window and you have to understand the gracie mythos that was still very real. Beating Royler was a massive win and Saku is almost single handedly repsonsible for destroying that mythos. Not only did he beat four gracies, he did it easily and he submitted two of them. He had been submitting and finishing BJJ BBs consistently, but was another level.

The 2000GP with Sak's Mezger and Igor fights is another instance where you have to look beyond the W/L. Sak should have lost to Mezger, but fought a pretty close fight against another guy who outweighed him by about 30 pounds. Sak today would be a WW fighting at WW size against the top 205 fighters in the world. After the controversial Mezger win, Sak had his incredible win over Royce, in which he fought for 90 minutes.

Even after fighting for 90 minutes, and Igor outweighing him by 50 pounds, Sak was still able take Igor down and nearly ended the fight with an armbar. Igor controlled most of the fight, but it was at least close enough for an overtime round, which Sak withdrew from. So although some people just see the L on his record, you have to understand the context of coming off a 90 minute fight, being outweighed by 50 pounds (Sak actually weighed in at 176 for the Royce fight, plus however much fluid he lost), and nearly winning via armbar anyway...

The Igor fight may be Sak most impressive performance. It's stunning that he could do what he did against Igor, who was a top 3 HW at that time. Igor had 31 fights in a row without a loss and was a top 3 HW when he fought Sak, and Sak nearly beat him despite the weight and the exhaustion. Stunning.

After the Igor fight, Sak beat Shannon Ritch and two more gracies, cementing the end to the gracie mythos.

Then, the decline.

The first Wandy fight was next. He actually knocked Wandy down in the opening minute, but was overwhelmed afterwards. Following that loss, he choked out Rampage and was granted a rematch with Wandy. He again made the fight competitive. He took Wandy down, controlled him, and locked on a tight guillotine, but Wandy again overwhelmed him, slamming him and breaking his collarbone. All three of those fights involved a 20-30 pound weight disadvantage.

Next, he fought Cro Cop, and again was impressive against a much larger opponent before being overwhelmed. He took Cro Cop down before fracturing his orbital and losing.

This run is what made Sak great. After the loss to Schembri, he was never really the same. But for a while, Sak was a WW dominating LHW and HW sized opponents, and finishing them decisively. After that, he single-handedly destroyed the Gracie myth, and not only beat them but submitted them. And even when he started losing, he was losing to legends of the sport, competing far above his weight, and still routinely coming close to winning those fights. Nobody has ever done what Sak has done, and there won't be another fighter like him ever again. 
2/20/10 2:10 AM
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stevarino
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Agreed, except for your dismissal of Hughes.
2/20/10 3:36 AM
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whistleblower
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NarlyPersianDude - Dan has wins at weightclasses higher and has fought Big Nog great two times, including beating him.

Please stop with this. Hendo did not really "beat" Nog. Tell us - have you seen the fight? Can you describe at all what Hendo really did to actually "beat" Nog?
NarlyPersianDude - Also in the midst of the decade, Dan held both the Pride MW and LHW titles, at a time when it was very meaningful.

Hendo held both titles in 2007 - and then lost them both in his very next fights at each weight.

Hendo won the Pride 205 title in 2007 - and lost it in his next fight at 205, 7 months later.

Hendo won the Pride 183 title on NYE 2005 - and then lost at 183 to Misaki, 8 months later (except it was a non-title fight, so he still remained the official "champion").

Hendo never had a lengthy, dominating, or consistent reign of any kind, at any weight in his career. He was not some definingly dominant champion. He won a grand total of one fight combined as the champion - to Misaki, whom he then immediately lost to in the rematch.
Musashi - I love how conveniently everyone forgets the judging criteria in Rings back when Dan fought Nog. SIZE MATTERED and Nog was bigger. That is what affected the judging and both Dan and Nog knew that going into the match.

I really wish you had not answered this, because this is specifically what I was asking fiercedragon to come up with (which, knowing him, he wouldn't have been able to). But this is exactly what I was looking for, and you're exactly correct - "SIZE MATTERED and Nog was bigger."

Hendo "won" that fight essentially by just being smaller.

Hendo "won" the decision just for escaping and surviving in that fight - after getting outgrappled, positionally dominated, and overall outfought by Nog throughout - but because he was the smaller man (and because RINGS rules did not factor in all that positional dominance, like normal MMA rules do), that's how Hendo "won."

Hendo "won" ONLY because of the extremely counter-intuitive RINGS rules and judging criteria. Hendo would not have even reasonably won that fight under any other rules in MMA besides RINGS'.

Because otherwise, anyone watching that fight would have intuitively felt that Nog actually won pretty clearly. It wasn't a beatdown (which was virtually impossible with RINGS rules anyway), and it was competitive - but Nog was better. Not even most Hendo nuthuggers - at least the ones who have actually seen the fight - thought that Hendo really "beat" Nog.

Seriously, people shouldn't even talk about Hendo "beating Nog" any more, until they've actually seen the fight - to see for themselves how Hendo really "won." Then let's talk.
2/20/10 4:02 AM
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whistleblower
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Musashi - It should also be mentioned that Dan didn't just beat Nog that night. He beat Gilbert Yvel and Babalu as well... all three in one night....

Yeah, and the win over Babalu was close as well (although not nearly as bad as the one over Nog). But coming right off of that extremely counter-intuitive decision over Nog, to then scrape by with yet another close and questionable decision over Babalu in the final is what actually cemented the "Decision Dan" label at the time.

He wasn't "Decision Dan" just because he won a lot of decisions - but because he won a lot of close and even controversial decisions.

He officially "won" 3 fights to win that KoK that night - but the Yvel win was the only one that was actually decisive or even uncontroversial. Much like how he never actually decisively beat anyone at all to previously win the UFC 200 tournament championship as well - and how he didn't decisively beat Busta to later win the Pride 183 Championship. 3 of the 4 major titles that Hendo won were in close or even controversial fashion.

(And btw, Musashi, what happened to your stance that RINGS doesn't even count as MMA anyway, and shouldn't be included towards a fighter's MMA record? Why are you suddenly discussing Hendo's dubiously won KoK tournament as if you feel it should now actually count as MMA?)

Hendo is one of the 10 greatest fighters of the decade - but he should not even be in the discussion for #2. And he was not even reasonably, possibly ahead of Nog for that decade.

Not only did Nog outfight Hendo TWICE, head-to-head - but just overall, Nog actually dominated FAR more consistently and at a higher level than Hendo did. Nog was a far more dominating #1, far higher than Hendo ever was - as well as a far longer and more consistently reigning top-3, was generally much higher in his division throughout the decade than Hendo was - and he consistently beat more top opponents FAR more decisively than Hendo ever did.

By no standard of measure - except for the 7 months out of the decade where Hendo simultaneously held both official 205 and 183 titles (and again, he had already lost as champ at 183 anyway) - was Hendo even arguably a better or more accomplished fighter throughout the decade than Nog in any way. It's just not even reasonable to have Hendo at #2 for that decade, much less ahead of Nog.
2/20/10 5:26 AM
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BrainofPJ
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Agreed. Hendo was always capable of beating the best but he was never dominant for an extended period
2/20/10 7:12 AM
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On My Knees for Doom
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 WB,

I think you skipped my long post about Sak.  All my statements about him use the ranking metric to dispute some people's notion that he is one of the Greatest of all time.  If we're going to use a combination of the ranking metric and the sentimental value of Nog being the #2 fighter of the decade, then that same standard has to apply to evaluating Sak as a potentional top 5 GOAT (which he's simply not for reasons I outline and you back up in your own post). 

To me, Sak ranks second tier in the same place as Hendo and benefited from just as much "luck" albeit manufactured as Hendo did.

Fedor is #1. Nog is #2.  BJ, Anderson, Hughes, GSP, Wand and Chuck round out the top 8 (in what order is anyone's guess.)  Hendo, Sak, Tito, Frank, Randy, Mach Sakurai and someday Miguel Torres round out a second tier.
2/20/10 8:06 AM
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Lord Kancho
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NarlyPersianDude - 

Dan Big Nog and Anderson tied at 2nd spot




Putting Anderson at #2 is ridiculous.
2/20/10 8:28 AM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Hendo and Nog are VERY close p4p #2 IMO.

Hendo was fighting bigger guys half the time and giving them hell.

His only losses to guys his size were Misaki once, and friggin Anderson
2/20/10 9:55 AM
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G-Hands
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good shit op
2/20/10 11:01 AM
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Trackman 2
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Edited: 02/20/10 11:02 AM
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I would put Fedor 1 - Hughes 2 and Nog 3 for the decadeI put Hughes over nog because Hughes finished a lot of top guys his weight. Most of Nogs finishes were fighters under 200 or fighters with little ground skill
2/20/10 2:36 PM
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orcus
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 "I can't tell if you're just a pedantic twat"

lol, is this the first time you've read anything posted by whistleblower?
2/20/10 5:02 PM
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whistleblower
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^ Yeah, like Musashi himself hasn't been one of, if not the, most well-known "pedantic twat" on this board for years. Or orcus for that matter. Irony.
Musashi -
that's how Hendo "won."

No quotes needed. Hendo DID win. If you want to use quotes, use them when referring to Nog. i.e. Nog "won"... as in, he didn't really win but you think he did.

Hendo officially "won" - but do you feel Hendo actually deserved to win that fight? Don't you think Nog is the one who really won that fight, or that Nog deserved to win that fight - and that Nog was the one who actually proved to be the better fighter overall? Can you tell us who you feel actually outfought whom in that fight?

And are you going to deny the fact that not just a clear majority at the time - but a rather overwhelming one - felt that Nog had really won that fight (or deserved to)?

Are you denying the reality back then that, before Nog lost to Fedor, Nog was considered the essentially undefeated Champion? (Much like Fedor is today - even despite the official "loss" on his record.)
Musashi - Who is to say that Dan wouldn't have pushed the pace more or fought differently had the rules been different?

Oh, so the rules are what made Hendo simply allow himself to get outgrappled by Nog? Hendo "push[ing] the pace more" is what would have kept him from being continually mounted by Nog for all that time? (Nog was better even with the strikes as well, not that there was much of that going on.) So it was because of the rules and judging criteria that Hendo just let himself get outgrappled and overall outfought throughout the fight - in every phase?

Why don't you tell us in what area Hendo actually proved his superiority over Nog at all?
Musashi - This whole argument reminds me of the criticism that Fedor barely won his last fight, his fight with Arlovski, Fujita and so on. The point is that he keeps winning.

Holy shit @ comparing Hendo-Nog 1 to either Fedor-Arlovski or Fedor-Fujita. I missed the part where Hendo definitively (and brutally) finished Nog - to unquestionably win the fight - like Fedor did with Arlovski and Fujita. When someone has to stretch so desperately far to even try and make an argument - there isn't much of one. (And that one was right out of the orcus playbook.)
Musashi - Likewise, it means nothing that Dan didn't always dominate individual opponents in his fights.

Glad to see you have conceded and moved on from your previously untenable (and ridiculously false) position that Hendo had "overall consistent dominant performances since day one."

And how does it "mean nothing" that Hendo consistently only barely and controversially got by most of the top opponents he's faced? If having dominant performances over individual opponents "means nothing" - then why did you even try to make that vaunted claim in the first place - blustering that Hendo has given "overall consistent dominant performances since day one"? Uh, because giving "overall consistent dominant performances" actually DOES mean something. (The only reason it suddenly "means nothing" to you now, and why you are shrinking away from your own previous words, is because you now realize you were wrong in trying to apply that distinction to Hendo.)
Musashi - The point is that his ability to fight and win kept him in the top ten every year of his career since fighting in the UFC in 98.

While also still dropping out of the top 10 at certain points over those years.

Which Nog NEVER has since entering the top 10 almost a decade ago. Not once, not at any point. In fact, Nog was also continuously #1 and top-3 MUCH longer and more dominantly than Hendo ever was. So if you want to talk about consistency and rankings - it isn't even close. Nog was far longer-reigning and consistently at a much higher level.

(And unlike Hendo, Nog didn't need the benefit of numerous questionable decisions to stay up there - where it was Hendo's "ability to fight and win" consistently close and even controversial decisions that further "kept him in the top ten," at least longer than he otherwise would have been.)
Musashi - That alone is evidence that he has been a dominant force in the sport for a LONG time... regardless of whether he always dominated individual opponents.

LOL. So according to Musashi:

Did NOT consistently dominate individual opponents, still = consistently dominant force. Gotcha.
Musashi - And no, I don't consider that match MMA.

Oh okay. So then you DON'T consider that to be a win for Hendo over Nog in MMA at all. Glad we could agree.
Musashi - Thanks for playing. I'm done here.

See you next post!
2/20/10 5:19 PM
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whistleblower
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On My Knees for Doom - Fedor is #1. Nog is #2. BJ, Anderson, Hughes, GSP, Wand and Chuck round out the top 8 (in what order is anyone's guess.) Hendo, Sak, Tito, Frank, Randy, Mach Sakurai and someday Miguel Torres round out a second tier.

Definitely agree with Fedor being #1 and Nog being #2 for the decade. #1 is pretty much unquestionable, and #2 is rather clear-cut as well. (Also agree that from #3 on down, there are a number of reasonable candidates - although you are not implying that BJ would actually be #3, are you?)

Generally agree with most of the rest of your list as well, although respectfully, strongly disagree on certain exceptions (especially Sakuraba, who I feel is unquestionably on that highest level).

Kneeblock, you are an extremely knowledgeable and overall objective poster - but respectfully, you are a BJJ-er through and through (a training background which definitely adds to your fight insights, something which someone like orcus could certainly learn from, even just a little). And your BJJ allegiance, while richly deepening your perspective, also imho makes you conspicuously less favorably disposed and balanced towards guys like Sakuraba and Frank Shamrock, than you usually are when it comes to analyzing other all-time greats.

(And I usually disagree, respectfully, with your positions on those fighters. And will continue to do so in this case. [But again, while actually agreeing with most of your inclusions and your tier system - but again, with a few strong, conspicuous exceptions.] And as even you yourself alluded to, your opinion on Sakuraba would mostly be the exception when it comes to the perspective of other long-term knowledgeable fans - the vast majority of whom would certainly consider Sak at least among the very greatest ever.)
2/20/10 7:33 PM
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whistleblower
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^
whistleblower -
Musashi - Thanks for playing. I'm done here.

See you next post!
2/20/10 7:43 PM
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whistleblower
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NarlyPersianDude - WB, I noticed how you pick apart Henderson or anyone else we mention for the second place, but ignore picking apart Nog, and remember a decade is 10 years.

Uh, first of all, I am not the only one who has "pick[ed] apart Henderson" here - by pointing out the straight-up fact that Hendo has never consistently dominated top opponents, or never consistently dominated any division, or consistently dominated any sustained period at all.

And yes, exactly - "remember a decade is 10 years." And throughout those 10 years, Nog was consistently at a higher level than Hendo, consistently beat top opponents FAR more decisively, while losing fewer times to better opponents than Hendo did - was once the undisputed, singularly dominant #1 in the world (which Hendo never was), was once even considered the greatest-ever at one point (which Hendo never was) - and where, throughout those 10 years, Nog was consistently much higher in his division than Hendo was, and both stayed #1 and top-3 for FAR longer and more continuously than Hendo ever did.

So by what overall standard of measure did Hendo even arguably have as good a decade - and "remember a decade is 10 years" - as Nog did? When Hendo never consistently dominated for any extended period at all throughout that decade - and when Nog was actually without question more consistently and more highly dominant throughout that same decade? (And again, "remember a decade is 10 years" - and when it comes to judging that decade, it would also help if someone was actually around for all 10 years of that decade, as it happened.)

In fact, for MOST of the decade, Hendo wasn't even mentioned in the same breath with Nog.

He wasn't a part of the rarefied MMA stratosphere like Nog had perennially been, along with guys like Fedor, Wanderlei, Hughes... It really wasn't even until 2007 - when Hendo beat Wanderlei to become simultaneous official 205 and 183 titleholders - that Hendo ultimately joined that highest-level company, and was really put into the definitive all-time-great category (upgraded from borderline, unlike Nog).

But for over that whole 10 year period, Nog had been consistently and clearly superior - and easily more dominant for that decade.
2/20/10 7:45 PM
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orcus
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 " Fedor fighting at hw, further solidified his greatness, cause he's more a lhw sized dude. Big Nog fought at his right weightclass"

That's a silly argument. You don't give Fedor extra points because you personally feel that he should be at 205. Obviously he fights at the weight he feels he performs the best at and will have the most success at, and has done this his entire career.

Dan cannot possibly be put in the same discussion as Nog. Nog has been #1 or #2 for the bulk of the decade, and only dropped from there this past year after Mir beat him. Dan has for the most part had one or two losses for every one of his big wins during that time, and Wand is really his only "big win" that was truly impressive.
2/20/10 8:03 PM
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whistleblower
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Edited: 02/21/10 11:50 PM
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NarlyPersianDude - Henderson has fought awesome at mw, awesome at lhw, and awesome at hw.

If you feel Hendo fought "awesome at hw," then you probably have not actually seen his fights at HW (especially against Nog and Babalu). His one "awesome" HW win was over Yvel.
NarlyPersianDude - at hw Big Nog(whether or not he won the fight in the fight sense, either way a mw performing like that aginst a top heavyweight is very meaningful),Babalu,Gilbert Yvel

at lhw, Wandy,Franklin,Vitor


at mw, Renzo Gracie,Bustamante,Ninja,Bisping,Misaki,Palhares

And several of those wins were indecisive or even controversial.

Whereas there has only been ONE really controversial (albeit extremely) win for Nog among his top wins (i.e., Ricco). Contrast that to how many more of Hendo's top wins over his career have been at least close and questionable. And I am applying the same exacting standard to Nog, as I am to Hendo. And by that same standard, Nog has one (maybe two, if you really want to stretch) - while Hendo has about 8.

You don't notice the rather wide difference in actual quality between HOW Hendo won his fights, compared to how Nog did? (And LOL @ "whether or not he won the fight in the fight sense." You don't think actually winning the fight "in the fight sense" is ultimately important? But at least you've added that disclaimer now - instead of just continuing to go around stating how Hendo "beat" Nog, without actually being able to cite exactly how. And btw, Nog wasn't actually established yet as a "top heavyweight" at the time.)
NarlyPersianDude - You cant knock Dan for having 7 losses, cause he is fighting up in weightclasses. You have to look at how many times he lost at his normal weightclass, only 2 in the decade, to Misaki and Anderson.

You cannot even compare Hendo's losses to Nog's - both in quantity AND in quality.

Not only has Nog lost fewer times - but Nog's only decisive losses EVER have been to Fedor and Mir. (And his only other losses at all have been a close and questionable loss to Barnett, and an EXTREMELY dubious and widely-disagreed-with official "loss" to Hendo.)

Whereas (even only including similar-sized opponents) Hendo not only lost to Misaki (who, while he subsequently turned out to be a top-level opponent, was still lower-level than anyone Nog has ever lost to) - but Hendo also really struggled with, and arguably should have lost to, Kondo, Ninja, Busta, and Newton (who were smaller de facto MW's just like Hendo, and certainly not bigger than him).

So when it comes to losses, Nog has lost to better opponents, fewer times. And when it comes to wins - Nog has more consistently beaten more top opponents, much more decisively. (While needing to barely scrape by with controversial decisions FAR fewer times.)
NarlyPersianDude - I think Anderson,Big Nog and Dan have the same merit for that position. Easily.

LOL @ "Easily." (Not when it comes to both Anderson and especially Hendo having "the same merit" as Nog for being the #2 for the decade - because "remember a decade is 10 years." So try actually counting all 10 years.)

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