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UnderGround Forums >> Nog was the #2 Fighter of the Decade


2/21/10 2:01 AM
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tdunning
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According to Dana in the post fight press conference, Nog is the best heavyweight ever. True story
2/21/10 2:51 AM
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rockyboy
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tdunning - According to Dana in the post fight press conference, Nog is the best heavyweight ever. True story


Well you can only argue that w/ Fedor being #1. Some years later BJ and GSP will get KTFO by younger fighter as well, and I will never question their places in history of MMA
2/22/10 12:07 AM
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whistleblower
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NarlyPersianDude - Where do you rank Anderson and BJ for decade mastery?


I think you won me over on Dan being lower than Big Nog, but I think Anderson has a good claim on the second spot as well.

In terms of "decade mastery," Anderson was the #1 fighter of the last 3.5 years of the decade.

But up to that point, he hadn't even been one of the 30 greatest fighters ever - and had been an inconsistent, spottily dominant fighter throughout his career, throughout that decade. Anderson had actually become the #1 WW in the world earlier in the decade after his huge Championship win over Sakurai - but then never defended and instead shortly vacated and moved up to compete at a higher weight instead (most notably in Pride), where he was extremely up-and-down.

He had big wins over Horn and Newton (along with other meaningful wins at the time, like over the Brazilian Killa and Lee Murray) - but then followed those wins with extremely devaluing losses (by dominated submission to a can in Takase and by spectacular submission to a journeyman in Chonan).

Going into his run of dominance in 2006, Anderson would not have even been on the second-tier of greatest fighters of the decade up to that point - and had not even been close to the same league as Nog (actually, several levels below Nog), up until the last 3.5 years of the decade.

While Nog had already been the clear #2 for the decade up to that point, behind only Fedor.

And even in the last 3.5 years of the decade - during Anderson's supreme and thoroughly dominating run - Nog still had big wins over Barnett, Sylvia, Werdum, and Randy, compared to Anderson's best wins over Hendo, Franklin 2x, Forrest, and Marquardt in that same period of time.

So even if you think Anderson's wins are better - they are not THAT much better (if at all, in terms of just the actual wins themselves), to make up for the vast difference in accomplishments and dominant consistency between them, up to that point.

But Anderson's overall run in the last 3.5 years was still definitely much better than Nog's, because Anderson did not lose (unlike Nog) and dominated far more thoroughly and highly as the #1 of his division (although even then, Nog was still #2 and then top-5 for the rest of the decade).

But the bottom line is, was Anderson's 3.5 years enough to make up for the 9 years of Nog's - and catch up to or even surpass the huge head-start that Nog had already had for MOST of that decade? Was Anderson's 3.5 years enough to bridge the gap from all the way outside the top-20 up to that point - to then all the way up to #2, even ahead of Nog?

No.

Nog was CONSTANTLY highest-level elite in MMA for virtually the entire decade, where he was top-5 and Championship-level relevant for about NINE years of that decade - including being the undisputed #1 himself for about 1.5 years, and then STILL being #2 or #3 for about the next 5.5 years straight, and even ending the decade still top-5.

So when it comes to "decade mastery," Anderson's 3.5 years of dominance (albeit supreme dominance) ultimately does not measure up. Nog had too huge of a lead in "decade mastery," where he had been so much higher than Anderson for most of that decade - and even still stayed near the very top and still beat top-level opponents (even very comparable to Anderson's best wins) during the last 3.5 years of Anderson's "mastery" as well.
2/22/10 12:20 AM
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whistleblower
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As for BJ - BJ is much like Anderson in terms of "decade mastery" as well. For most of the decade, BJ was actually considered a relative disappointment in terms of his overall accomplishments to that point - when compared to all his prodigious talent. (Much like Anderson - albeit BJ had definitely, easily been higher than Anderson for that decade up to then.)

After disappointingly never becoming champ at LW, coming up short in his two title fights there, and not consistently being the best (as he was expected to be) - BJ then had a HUGE win over Gomi to cement himself as the consensus best LW at the time. And then followed that up with an even huger win by dominantly upsetting Hughes to win the WW World Championship.

But then after fighting once more at WW against Bang, he moved up to MW and even HW, where he still had some success and even faced meaningful opponents there - but was still not even arguably competing at, much less dominating at, the elite level of those divisions. Then he came back down to WW and was certainly more than competitive with the very best there, the undisputed top-2 - but still ultimately came up short.

It wasn't until BJ finally came back down to the LW division after a 4-year absence, that he started consistently dominating a division in 2007-2008 - and thus really cementing his claim as an all-time great then. (And he, exactly like Anderson at MW, has proven to be just on another level of his division - which we always strongly suspected - but which he didn't actually start proving consistently until much later in the decade. Much later than Nog.)

So for that decade - in terms of overall "decade mastery" - BJ really wasn't even close to as highly and as consistently dominant as Nog was for the duration.
2/22/10 12:30 AM
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Hollywood Blonde
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WB--I agree, though given that BJ lost to Hughes and GSP when he returned to WW (though he almost beat both), I think he'd have to be in the "undisputed top-3," not the "undisputed top-2."
2/22/10 1:26 AM
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whistleblower
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NarlyPersianDude - Whatever you think of him, where do you rank the guys I mentioned. Maybe give a top 15. FoSho.

For the decade of the 2000's - Fedor, Nog, Wanderlei, Chuck, Hughes, GSP, Anderson, Randy, Hendo, BJ, Sakuraba (where much of his all-time-great run came before the year 2000), and Tito (who dominated the early part of the decade) are ultimately rather clearly a cut above everyone else for that decade. They are the most eminent all-time-great candidates based on their accomplishments from within that decade.

And there was not really a specific order listed there, except Fedor was #1, and Nog was #2. That is rather definitive. (With Fedor at #1 being virtually unquestionable.)

But for #3 on down, there are a number of reasonable candidates (e.g., Hughes, Wanderlei, Chuck, Randy, and even from later in the decade already, Anderson and GSP) - but for which there are really no set, specific placings, as there should be for #1 and #2.

Maybe Gomi should still be up there in that group as well (although he declined rather badly for the last 3 years of that decade - but he had still easily been the most consistently dominating LW for most of the decade, before BJ came back down to it later - and had even been the Undisputed Champion and #1 for a while).

So overall, that makes 12 or 13 who are pretty clear-cut at the top for the 2000's. The rest of a top-15, I'm not so sure - off the top of my head, other candidates would be Cro Cop, Shogun, Rampage, and probably still Sakurai and Coleman even for the confines of that decade (where both Sakurai and Coleman had already had supremely dominating Championship runs and historically significant accomplishments even preceding the year 2000).

And if you want to back to the 90's - it was Frank Shamrock, Igor, Sakuraba (where his all-time-great run actually culminated in the year 2000, so just outside the decade), and Royce who were the 4 who were really a cut above the rest for that decade, and the most eminent single candidates for being the greatest-ever at the turn of the millennium.

(Sakuraba was rather clearly the #1 all-time going into 2001, though, after his year 2000 - while for strictly the 90's themselves, going into 2000, it would have been Frank or Igor. Sakurai would have been in that uppermost group if you go up to include 2000 as well, especially with his huge peaking win over Trigg.)

As others from the 90's, off the top of my head - Severn, Coleman, Sakurai, Sato, hell, even Rickson and Renzo, and Ken and Bas (primarily for their Pancrase dominance)... Different era back then (and thus, should largely be judged differently).
2/22/10 1:37 AM
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whistleblower
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HB - my bad, I see now my wording was not clear. I certainly did not mean BJ himself was undisputed top-2 in the WW division (especially since BJ had been altogether gone from the division for a couple of years).

I meant that Hughes and GSP had been the undisputed top-2, when BJ came back. I should have written, "Then he came back down to WW and was certainly more than competitive with the very best there, AGAINST the undisputed top-2 - but still ultimately came up short." Which would have been much clearer.
2/22/10 1:41 AM
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NorthFromHere
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Whistleblower,
not to piss on your parade, but why do you use so much brackets, en-rules and one sentence long paragraphs?
2/22/10 2:12 AM
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whistleblower
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orcus - Dan cannot possibly be put in the same discussion as Nog. Nog has been #1 or #2 for the bulk of the decade, and only dropped from there this past year after Mir beat him.

Exactly. But interesting (and rather amusing) that you now just adopted the exact same basis, the exact same standard of measure I used - i.e., more consistent and much higher-level dominance throughout the decade for Nog - to support Nog's standing, but which you previously called "loathsome" when I presented it. (With even very similar phrasing.)

So I imagine it must be doubly "loathsome" for you now, to have to echo that perspective so exactly.

But you have to - because that was exactly the reality. For MOST of the decade, Hendo was not even considered on the same level as Nog - who had clearly been much higher throughout that decade in terms of consistent dominance (and actually decisively beating top opponents), more continuous and more preeminent standing in a division, and just greater overall legendary status, and constantly being in the discussion for being one of the select-few greatest ever. Which for most of the decade, Hendo was not. And not even nearly as much as Nog.

Which is precisely why Hendo really "cannot possibly be put in the same discussion as Nog" for being the #2 for that decade.
2/22/10 12:23 PM
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whistleblower
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NarlyPersianDude - 1.Fedor
2.Big Nog
3.Anderson
4.Dan
5.GSP
6.Wandy
7.Chuck
8.BJ Penn
9.Miguel
10.Shogun
11.Randy
12.Hughes
13.Tito
14.Machida
15.Rich

Uh, Rich Franklin top-15 for the decade? LOL. Even Tim Sylvia actually accomplished more in the decade (and over their careers) than Franklin.

Sylvia actually reigned longer, had more title defenses, and beat better opponents (Arlovski 2x, Ricco, Monson, Gan McGee, Vera) than Franklin did during the decade (or his career). Franklin's best wins ever are Tanner 2x, Okami, Loiseau, and badly slumping Wanderlei. He defended his title against "#1 contenders" in Nate Quarry and Loiseau.

By no substantive, accomplishment-based standard of measure did Franklin actually have a better decade than even Sylvia.

(And Torres over guys like Hughes [and holy shit, is Hughes way too low], Randy, and Tito is really premature and disproportionate at this point. Torres is great, but he only even started competing at a major-league level, in a major-league division, in 2007-2008. While he was already top-level in talent and skill - in terms of actual competition, he had been a local-level, minor-league fighter for most of the decade.)
4/1/10 5:11 PM
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dahosse
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to say he "only" took beatings is 4-5 fights doesn't really mean much when you consider a guy can get ruined in 1 fight.
4/1/10 7:01 PM
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Committeeman
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Nog was always my favorite. I think some new guys are coming up fast, but Nog broke a lot of ground.

I was impressed when he fought Sapp someone nearly twice his size who almost killed him with that piledriver. He was the first to break Sapp, Cro Cop, etc. And I still believe if the matches were longer, he would eventually have beat Fedor back in Pride days.
11/3/10 2:19 AM
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Mark Dorsey
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 ttt sorry there's a few WB threads im bumping
11/3/10 2:26 AM
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Mr Pulla
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WB knows his stuff and it's posters like him that make me appreciate forums.
11/3/10 10:59 AM
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Hel13torm
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 I'm just glad that people will stop mocking Nog for getting KO'd by a guy with supposed "pillow hands" now that he's the reigning champ..... no shame in that loss at all.

Hopefully he heals up and comes back 100% rather than rushing back.
WAR MINOTAURO!
11/3/10 11:41 AM
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WestsideStrangler
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 I'm probably going to get shot here but there are 2 really cool things about this thread.

Whistleblower puts down some amazing facts and I love his reads.  After that I decided to skim through this thread to see how many dumb 10er comments were in here arguing about it and guess what?  NOT ONE 10er posted in this thread at all until the 2 above me and they were good and respectful posts.  That's right I have learned something.  If you post a fact about somethign there is really nothing for them to argue about so this thread silenced them since February of this year.  Very cool you guys should all read WB's threads for history lessons.
11/3/10 6:44 PM
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Lord Kancho
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Nog is everything there is to celebrate about MMA. And i never watched TUF, but everyone said he was the most amazing coach ever.
11/3/10 7:21 PM
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RicePicker
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holy frat batman! Phone Post
11/3/10 8:12 PM
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minotauro11
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Good thread, nogueira is the man and will hopefully bounce back. WAR NOG! Phone Post
11/3/10 8:15 PM
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shanoknowsmma
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whistleblower - First of all, if not for Fedor, Nog would have been the Fighter of the Decade. And not just the decade, but would have still remained the greatest ever - as he was already widely considered to be, going into the first Fedor fight.

In fact, going into that fight, Nog had been the dominant, undisputed #1 in the world, the consensus absolute best - and the essentially undefeated Champion, who was even considered virtually invincible, along with being the greatest-ever up to that point. Nog had beaten every single opponent he had ever faced, with the only official "loss" on his record being the extremely controversial decision to Hendo in RINGS. (Which was one of the most baffling and counter-intuitive decisions in MMA history - which a rather overwhelming majority at the time felt Nog had really won. Which Nog then officially, decisively avenged anyway.)

There was absolutely no one even possibly ahead of Nog at that point. No one had ever really beaten him, the Sapp fight had actually even added to his mystique and only further proved how almost mythically unconquerable he was - and Nog was both the best now, and the best ever.

In many ways, Nog was essentially Fedor before Fedor. (And if not for Fedor, would have still stayed so - as the undisputed #1 - for most of the decade.)

But then even including the reality of Fedor - Nog, along with Fedor, has still been the most long-term consistent fighter in MMA history (and specifically throughout the entire last decade). In fact, Nog has been the most continuously top-3/top-5 fighter in MMA history - in any weight class ever - even including Fedor himself (since Fedor came up through the ranks after Nog).

For over 7 straight years, Nog was perennially top-3 in the world. Actually, for over 7 years and 3 months straight, Nog had been universally ranked no lower than #4 at worst (briefly, following the Barnett loss, which he then immediately avenged) - and absolutely no lower than #3 for 7 of those years. Longer and higher than any other fighter ever, except for Fedor (who's been #1 for 7 straight years).

Nog first became generally ranked top-5 at HW in early 2001 (along with Coleman, Igor, Randy, and Rizzo at the time) - after dominantly winning the stacked RINGS KoK (including easily finishing the guy who had just easily finished the reigning UFC HW champion in Randy).

Then Nog was the undisputed #1 for a year and a half after beating the previously #1 Coleman - and then, after being upset by Fedor, was STILL universally ranked #2 or #3 for the next 5.5 years straight (aside from the 3 months in between the Barnett fights, where he was #4). (Although along the way, Nog should have also very arguably lost to Ricco as well, in an extremely controversial decision which most people felt should not have gone Nog's way.)

But Nog was still top-3 from 2001 all the way up until the end of 2008 - before finally dropping out with the loss to Mir. (Which was not only the first time Nog had ever been finished, but also the first and only definitive loss he has ever had to an unranked opponent at the time.)

So in total Nog was #1, #2, or #3 in the world for 7 years of the last decade - and was top-5 for almost NINE of the 10 years of that decade (and is still generally ranked top-5 even today). That kind of constancy is simply unparalleled. These aren't just empty stats or meaningless numbers in themselves. They accurately and completely reflect the reality of Nog's elite dominance throughout the decade - as it actually existed at the time.

In fact, no other fighter in MMA history, aside from Fedor, has ever had more highest-level consistency than Nog - or has remained continuously top-3 and top-5 (including having dominantly reigned at #1), for as long as Nog has.

Hughes was the most dominant UFC fighter and champion throughout the decade - but Nog was still more consistently dominant. Not only was Nog #1 even before Hughes was - but Nog still stayed top-3 and top-5, even after Hughes dropped off. Nog's run at the highest level actually both preceded and outlasted Hughes'.

Wanderlei was up there as well in terms of highest-level, top-3 longevity - but Nog's run was even longer and more consistent than Wanderlei's, just as it was over Hughes' and everyone else's. Randy and Hendo have had the greatest A-level longevity overall - but still not even close to as consistently or as highly as Nog's. (Where unlike with Nog, there were times when they had even dropped out of the top 10 - and years when they weren't top-5 or top-3, like Nog constantly was.)

Anderson and GSP are thoroughly dominant Champions today. But while Anderson was still getting finished by guys like Takase and Chonan - and before GSP even became a top contender at all - Nog had already been #1 and top-3 in the world for YEARS. And STILL remained so even after those guys emerged as consistently dominant forces, later in the decade.

So it is a fact that, aside from Fedor, there has been no fighter who was both as continuously and as highest-level dominant - in any weight class - throughout the entire decade (or ever) as Nog. And ultimately, the only reason why Nog was not #1 was because of Fedor. (Otherwise, Nog would have still stayed #1 as he already was - and ended up the #1 overall.)

But even with Fedor included - Nog was still the second most consistently dominant fighter in MMA, over the span of that entire last decade.


An example of an intelligent thread...posted by an intelligent forum member...and one who has praised my rankings.
BTW, Excellent post, whistleblower...i agree!
11/3/10 8:17 PM
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JimmersonzGlove
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Lord Kancho - Nog is everything there is to celebrate about MMA. And i never watched TUF, but everyone said he was the most amazing coach ever.

 I stopped watching TUF after that season. You had one of the biggest legends in the sports history on the show and they showed more of Junie Browning than Nog.
11/3/10 8:28 PM
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C1010
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My name is C1010 and I approve of this thread and its posts.
11/3/10 10:33 PM
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Lord Kancho
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JimmersonzGlove - 
Lord Kancho - Nog is everything there is to celebrate about MMA. And i never watched TUF, but everyone said he was the most amazing coach ever.

 I stopped watching TUF after that season. You had one of the biggest legends in the sports history on the show and they showed more of Junie Browning than Nog.


ugh.
2/7/11 4:25 PM
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athf013
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ttt

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