UnderGround Forums
 

HolyGround >> So is the bible God?


3/4/10 12:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
toelocku
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/5/03
Posts: 3082
770mdm - Psa 76:2 In Salem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.
Better translated as: In Judah is G-d known: His name is great in Israel.

Salem isn't phonetically sounded out it's Yehudah and it doesn't say Zion it say B'Yisrael not Zion...

Psa 132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
Here it does say Zion, it phonetically sounds like Tzion...

Anyway, you certainly can recall more of my scriptures then I can. 




"Salem isn't phonetically sounded out it's Yehudah and it doesn't say Zion it say B'Yisrael not Zion..."


no...


H8004
????
sha?le?m
BDB Definition:
Salem = “peace”
1) the place of which Melchizedek was king
1a) most Jewish commentators affirm that it is the same as Jerusalem
Part of Speech: noun proper locative
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: the same as H8003


the word is peace...aka...the city of peace...jerusalem which is in zion.





"Psa 132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
Here it does say Zion, it phonetically sounds like Tzion..."



H6726
?????
ts??yo?n
BDB Definition:
Zion = “parched place”
1) another name for Jerusalem especially in the prophetic books
Part of Speech: noun proper locative
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: the same (regularly) as H6725
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1910




no matter they both are talking about 'one place'. The place where God is...iow.

3/4/10 12:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/04/10 12:55 PM
Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1248

Well the Hebrew says Yehuda not Salem or Jerusalem or something it literally says Yehuda.  And there is a difference between Yisreal and Tzion or Zion.  The Hebrew identifies a distinction between the two because in one poem it says Tzion and the other it says Yisreal. 
I wish this forum could support the Hebrew language so I could show you.

Exodus: 24:10 " and they saw the G-d of Israel: and there was under His feet the like of a paved work of sapphire stone, and the lik eof the ver heaven for clearness.

Isaiah: 66:1 "Thus saith the Lord:  The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool: where is the house that ye may build unto Me?  And where is the place that may be My resting-place?

 Isaiah: 66:2 "For all these things hath My hand made, and so all these things came to be, saith the Lord...
3/4/10 12:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1249
Can you cut and paste a link to the Hebrew/English site you're using for this? 
I wonder if my poem has one word and your has another?
3/4/10 1:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
toelocku
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/5/03
Posts: 3087
using strongs heb. numbers...what heb text are you using?
3/4/10 1:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
toelocku
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/5/03
Posts: 3088
regardless the principle is the same...the place where we are to worship God...ZION-SALEM-JUDAH-etc are talking about 'one place' spiritually.
3/4/10 1:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1250

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm

I'm not so sure.  I'm looking into it, toggeling from work to this so I can't pay 100% attention but, I'm seeing the idea of the Sapphire being the everlasting sky and the foot stool being the earth itself, that G-d created all of it.  G-d doesn't dwell in structures like the Temple but if we build the Temple he dwells in us, as in, those who build a Temple for him he dwells in the builders.    Our hearts ultimately are the Temple and if we build a home for G-d in our hearts he will dwell there...  Not that he can't dwell in another's heart too. 

I see the footstool metaphore moved from Sinai to Israel to Jerusalem and even in Persia where G-d saved the Jews from annialation in the book of Esther.  Though not mentioned there G-d was certianly there. 

3/4/10 1:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
toelocku
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/5/03
Posts: 3089
770 i'm impressed that was very good...'the heavens' are the minds and hearts of Gods people(all eventually), that bein said...


"I see the footstool metaphore moved from Sinai to Israel to Jerusalem and even in Persia where G-d saved the Jews from annialation in the book of Esther. Though not mentioned there G-d was certianly there."



in the scripture all those locations...sinai, israel, persia are actually what God calls 'the land He gives to 'Abrahams seed'(symbolically Christ and all His people)...


Gen 15:18 In that day Yahweh contracted a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your seed I give this land, from the stream of Egypt as far as the great stream, the stream Euphrates,
Gen 15:19 the Cainite and the Kenizite and the Kadmonite
Gen 15:20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim
Gen 15:21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hivite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.


the 'land' or earth(adam) that God gives is all about the 'knowledge of good and evil' and all its diverse parts of knowledge...

iow...'Abrahams seed' are the believers of Jesus Christ because Abraham is the 'father of the faith'(symbolically Christ), and its 'His seed'(or children<all humanity eventually>) is to inherit 'the land'(symbolically Isreal<God true people>), ALONG WITH...the GOYIM!

Look at the verse...Gen 15:19 the Cainite and the Kenizite and the Kadmonite
Gen 15:20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim
Gen 15:21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hivite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.

God had them killed 'all the breaths' He said, symbolically to represent ALL THAT IS WITHIN US, that NEEDS destroyed(evil). We must kill the caininite pagan within.

I wrote this for Christians not you btw, you literally cant understand what i just wrote without first repenting to Jesus Christ. just sayin, but i'm hopeful.
3/4/10 3:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1251

If Christians are symbolically Abraham's seed then the Jews are literally Abraham's seed.   Even if many Jews today are not ethnically Jewish one can convert into Torah way of life which is in the Torah (which essentially would be people being symbolically Torah observant not ethnically.  Judaism would then be another interpretation for being symbolically Abraham's seed).  Deut 10:19.  But more important is that Abraham didn't find religion he found G-d not Jesus.

I do like these challenges because it forces me to really investigate -

 

3/4/10 3:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1252

Also Hinduism and the Eastern religions came from Abraham not only Judaism, Chrisitanity and Islam.  Check out
Gen 23:6 "And the sons of Abraham's concubines, Abraham gave gifts, and he sent them away from his son Isaac while he was still alive, eastward to the land of the East." 

Just before it says
Gen 23:2 "And she bore him Zimran and Jokshan and Medan and Midean and Jishbak and Shuah.
Gen 23:3 "And Jokshan begot Sheba and Dedan and the sons of Dedan were Ashurim, Letushim and Leumim."

Ashurim supposedly started the Ashram.  I have a lot on this but it's at home...


 

3/4/10 10:37 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/04/10 10:45 PM
Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1167
" I  All I see in your post is that even a mountain of biblical evidence for both an interpretive authority and the prominence of the Church has no effect because you have submitted to the authority of American revivalist teachers who submitted to the authority of the Protestant Reformers before you.  <br /><br />To answer your second question I don't know enough about your church, but you certainly use the language of revivalism.  It isn't that hard to see the issue here.  Why are there some 30,000 different Protestant sects all claiming to have the Bible as their sole authority and source of doctrine?  Wouldn't they be perfectly united if that actually worked."



I espouse to a house church type setting or community with interactive meetings rather than elder led from the front. Similar to what the rev does. Though we come from a hodgepog of different backgrounds we are not yet what i consider a thoroughly biblical church, I am (we) are working it out towards that.
3/5/10 8:57 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
toelocku
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/5/03
Posts: 3092
770mdm - <p>If Christians are symbolically Abraham's seed then the Jews are literally Abraham's seed.   Even if many Jews today are not ethnically Jewish one can convert into Torah way of life which is in the Torah (which essentially would be people being symbolically Torah observant not ethnically.  Judaism would then be another interpretation for being symbolically Abraham's seed).  Deut 10:19.  But more important is that Abraham didn't find religion he found G-d not Jesus.

I do like these challenges because it forces me to really investigate -

 </p>

"Judaism would then be another interpretation for being symbolically Abraham's seed). Deut 10:19. But more important is that Abraham didn't find religion he found G-d not Jesus.

I do like these challenges because it forces me to really investigate -"

being a 'Jew' is symbolic in its self as with Abraham(just a way of sayin Gods people), it was Abrahams FAITH that God valued not his literal 'foreskin'(symbolic as well aka. putting off the flesh).

btw...Abraham didnt find God, God found Abraham, choose him and his descendants(yes physical outward Jews til the Great Reformer came), a peculiar people...separate.


also 'the Jews of ole' before Christ ARE NOT God's people spiritually speaking(they will be), read your OT...

Jer 17:22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.
Jer 17:23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.

btw i believe ^ this is really talking to me, so 'no offense'.




3/5/10 9:01 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
toelocku
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/5/03
Posts: 3093
770mdm - <p>Also Hinduism and the Eastern religions came from Abraham not only Judaism, Chrisitanity and Islam.  Check out
Gen 23:6 "And the sons of Abraham's concubines, Abraham gave gifts, and he sent them away from his son Isaac while he was still alive, eastward to the land of the East." 

Just before it says
Gen 23:2 "And she bore him Zimran and Jokshan and Medan and Midean and Jishbak and Shuah.
Gen 23:3 "And Jokshan begot Sheba and Dedan and the sons of Dedan were <b>Ashurim</b>, Letushim and Leumim."

Ashurim supposedly started the Ashram.  I have a lot on this but it's at home...


 </p>


glad you showd me that...didnt know it.
3/5/10 10:53 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1254

Interesting.  Our literature indicates Abraham found G-d.  That G-d was/is always there calling to humanity but it took a special individual to hear that call.  As G-d created Abraham to hear that voice was a choice driven action on his part that the rest of humanity was ignoring.  True Abraham was created with less Filters from the devine so in that sense G-d found Abraham, if found is an apporpriate word here.  But from Abrahams point of view he found G-d...

The whole point of the Torah is for humanity to bring G-ds will into the physical world.  By keeping it 'in mind' isn't as important as the act.  The circumcision, building of the Tabernacle, sacrifice etc...  Give to the poor... 

also 'the Jews of ole' before Christ ARE NOT God's people spiritually speaking(they will be), read your OT...

Until they were all gathered at the foot of Mt Sinai, herd collectively the word of G-d and received the Decalogue, understood the Karuvim on the Decalogue was the path director back into the Garden of Eden...  That it could be accessed from anywhere even from within the desert.
 

3/5/10 3:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
toelocku
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/5/03
Posts: 3096
770mdm - <p>Interesting.  Our literature indicates Abraham found G-d.  That G-d was/is always there calling to humanity but it took a special individual to hear that call.  As G-d created Abraham to hear that voice was a choice driven action on his part that the rest of humanity was ignoring.  True Abraham was created with less Filters from the devine so in that sense G-d found Abraham, if found is an apporpriate word here.  But from Abrahams point of view he found G-d...

The whole point of the Torah is for humanity to bring G-ds will into the physical world.  By keeping it 'in mind' isn't as important as the act.  The circumcision, building of the Tabernacle, sacrifice etc...  Give to the poor... 

also 'the Jews of ole' before Christ ARE NOT God's people spiritually speaking(they will be), read your OT...

Until they were all gathered at the foot of Mt Sinai, herd collectively the word of G-d and received the Decalogue, understood the Karuvim on the Decalogue was the path director back into the Garden of Eden...  That it could be accessed from anywhere even from within the desert.
 </p>



"True Abraham was created with less Filters from the devine so in that sense G-d found Abraham, if found is an apporpriate word here. But from Abrahams point of view he found G-d..."

nope...

Gen 12:1 Now saying is Yahweh to Abram, "Go you from your land and from your kindred and from your father's house to the land which I shall show you.

Who does this verse say; who chose/found who?


Gen 12:2 And make you will I into a great nation, and bless you will I and make your name great, and become must you a blessing.

Who does this verse say is the One running the show here? Yes Abram chose to have faith, but faith is a gift from God, and NOT of ourselves.




"The whole point of the Torah is for humanity to bring G-ds will into the physical world. By keeping it 'in mind' isn't as important as the act. The circumcision, building of the Tabernacle, sacrifice etc... Give to the poor..."




Wrong. example...

'circumcision', is something done physically, that no more makes you holy than the man in the moon(just like gettin dunk'd in water or eating bread and wine btw). Nothing wrong with doing those things in and of themselves, but they dont' make one perfect those who don't do them are no less holy because the 'physcial' will pass away and what will be left 'after' will be inmaterial/spiritual thoughts of the mind/heavens.

These actions are predicated on first THE THOUGHTS OF THE MIND which are controlled by God both good and evil...


2Ch 9:23 and all the kings of the earth are seeking the presence of Solomon to hear his wisdom that *****Elohim has put in his heart,*****


Pro 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, ****Yet Yahweh establishes his steps."*****

Pro 19:21 Many are the designs in a man's heart, Yet the counsel of Yahweh, it shall stand firm."

Pro 21:1 Like rillets of water is the king's heart in the hand of Yahweh; *****Wherever He inclines, He turns it aside."*******





"That it could be accessed from anywhere even from within the desert."


I agree but not sure what you mean by the last paragraph.

770 if doing 'physical' things like killing a literal sheep are required for holiness why don't the Jews still do it? If that is required by God to be holy you guys are in trouble...know what i'm sayin.


3/10/10 3:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1264
Gen 12:1 Now saying is Yahweh to Abram, "Go you from your land and from your kindred and from your father's house to the land which I shall show you.

Who does this verse say; who chose/found who?

Me: Agreed

Who does this verse say is the One running the show here? Yes Abram chose to have faith, but faith is a gift from God, and NOT of ourselves.

Did you just say Abram chose something?...  Also agree

'circumcision', is something done physically, that no more makes you holy than the man in the moon(just like gettin dunk'd in water or eating bread and wine btw). Nothing wrong with doing those things in and of themselves, but they dont' make one perfect those who don't do them are no less holy because the 'physcial' will pass away and what will be left 'after' will be inmaterial/spiritual thoughts of the mind/heavens.

You're missing the point..  You're right but missing the point in that the intentions behind our actions make the difference.  The act done because our ancestors were directed by G-d to do it cleaves us to his direction which brings us close.  There were other tribes also circumcising themeselves but the difference was our presense of mind.  Now children have no presense of mind when getting circumcized today but just being circumcized is the connection.  Because when we grow up and learn of the circumsicion and why and all that, that past is brought into our present state of being. 

3/10/10 3:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1265
 I just have to cut and paste this next thing.  I know you hate it but my intention on doing such things is to bring out a rea Jewish thought or learning of a subject that is beyond my personal capabilities.  If not for nothing then the sheer beauty of this article is worth the read if anything else...  I got this in my In-box today and found it appropriate:

Finally the long narrative of the construction of the Tabernacle - to which the Torah devotes more space than any other single subject - is at an end. The building, its frame, drapes and sacred furniture, were complete. Moses inspects the finished project. We then read:
 
The Israelites had done all the work just as the Lord had commanded Moses. Moses saw all the work, and behold - they had done it just as the Lord had commanded. So Moses blessed them. (Ex. 39: 43)
Like many other passages in the description of the making of the Tabernacle, this echoes a line from the creation narrative: "G-d saw all that He had made, and behold - it was very good" (Gen. 1: 31 - the words in common are Vayar, "he saw", et kol, "all" and ve-hineh, "and behold").
 
The literary parallels between the Divine creation of the universe and the Israelites' construction of the Tabernacle are intentional and consequential. The Tabernacle was a micro-cosmos, a universe-in-miniature. In creating the universe, G-d made a home for humanity. In building the sanctuary, humanity made a home for G-d. And just as, at the beginning of time, G-d had blessed creation, so Moses blessed those who had a share in its human counterpart.
 
What, though, was the blessing Moses gave? The Torah itself is silent on this point, but the sages supplied the missing information.
 
With what blessing did Moses bless them? He said to them: "May it be G-d's will that His presence rests in the work of your hands." They responded: "May the pleasantness of the Lord our G-d be upon us. Establish for us the work of our hands, O establish the work of our hands" (Psalm 90: 17). (Sifre to Bamidbar, 143)
The midrash is based on the following stream of thought. One, and only one, psalm is attributed to Moses: Psalm 90, which bears the superscription, "A prayer of Moses, the man of G-d." It ends with the verse cited above, "May the pleasantness (noam) of the Lord our G-d be upon us". The reference in the verse to "the work of our hands" must surely refer to the Tabernacle - the only "work", in the sense of constructive achievement, the Israelites performed in Moses' day. Hence the phrase "a prayer of Moses" must be understood as the prayer/blessing he pronounced on the completion of the Tabernacle.

The question then arises as to the meaning of the words "the pleasantness of the Lord". Another Psalm (27: 4) uses an almost identical phrase: "One thing I ask of the Lord, only this do I seek: to live in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gaze on the pleasantness (noam) of the Lord and worship in His temple." This suggests that both psalms are a reference to the sanctuary (in the wilderness, the tabernacle; in a later era, the temple), and that "the pleasantness of the Lord" is a poetic way of describing the cloud of glory that filled the Tabernacle ("Then the cloud covered the Tent of Meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle", Ex. 40: 34) - in other words, the Divine presence. Thus when Moses said, "May the pleasantness of the Lord our G-d be upon us", he meant: "May it be G-d's will that His presence rests in the work of your hands."
 
It is a beautiful idea. Is it, though, something more? There is a hint here of a principle that has immense implications for the entire structure of Judaism. We can summarize it simply: It is not objects that are holy. It is human action and intention in accordance with the will of G-d that creates holiness.
 
3/10/10 3:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1266
Consider the following ruling of the sages (see Gittin 45b; Mishneh Torah, Yesodei ha-Torah 6: 8; Tefillin 1: 13): A Torah scroll, or tefillin, or a mezuzah, written by a heretic, is to be burned. Normally, to destroy a document containing G-d's name is absolutely forbidden. However, in this case, as Maimonides explains: "Since the person who wrote it does not believe in the sanctity of the name of G-d, and therefore did not write it with the requisite intent but merely as any other [secular] text, the [document containing] G-d's name is not sanctified [and may be destroyed]. Indeed it is a mitzvah to burn it so as to leave no record of heretics and their works."

 
Imagine two Torah scrolls, one written with the requisite intention and sanctity, the other written by an atheist. Physically, they may be indistinguishable. One cannot imagine any scientific test that - by examining the scrolls themselves - would establish which was holy and which not. Yet one is to be held in the highest possible sanctity, and the other to be burned. Holiness is not a property of objects. It is a property of human acts and intentions.

 
It is this idea that lies behind the very precise formula we use when we recite a blessing over the performance of a command: "Blessed are You . . . who has sanctified us by His commandments, and has commanded us to . . ." It is the commandments that make us holy: nothing else. When G-d said to the Israelites, before the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai, "You shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" (Ex. 19: 6), He meant that the Israelites would become holy through their performance of the commands he was about to reveal to them, not that there was anything intrinsically holy about them, prior to and independent of the commands. As Issi ben Judah said (Mekhilta, Massechta de-Kaspa, 20): "When G-d enjoins a new mitzvah on Israel, He endows them with new holiness."

 
The great commentator and halakhist R. Meir Simcha of Dvinsk (1843-1926, often known by the name of one of his commentaries, Ohr Sameakh) was tireless and forceful in stressing the point. Mount Sinai was - as the site of the greatest ever revelation of G-d - momentarily the holiest place on earth, yet as soon as the revelation was over, even animals were permitted to graze on it (Meshekh Chokhmah to Ex. 19: 13). The first tablets Moses brought down the mountain were supremely sacred. They had been hewn and written by G-d himself. Yet Moses broke them to show the Israelites that nothing is holy except in the context of fulfilling G-d's will (Meshekh Chokhmah to Ex. 32: 19). We endow objects and places with holiness, through our intentions, our words and our deeds. There is no such thing as ontological holiness, intrinsic sanctity.

 
Returning to the sanctuary, the very idea that there can be a "house of G-d" - that we can create, in finite space, a home for the Infinite - seems a contradiction in terms. Indeed, Israel's wisest king, Solomon, and one of the greatest of its prophets, Isaiah, said so explicitly. On dedicating the Temple, Solomon said: "But will G-d really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain You. How much less this temple I have built." (I Kings 8: 27). Likewise Isaiah said, "This is what the Lord says: Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where is the house you will build for Me? Where will My resting place be? (Isaiah 66: 1).

 
The answer was given by G-d to Moses at the very outset, before the construction of the Tabernacle was begun: "Let them make a sanctuary for Me, and I will dwell in them" - not "in it" but "in them" -- not in the building but its builders, not in wood and metal, bricks or stone, but in those who build and those who worship. It is not objects, buildings, or places that are holy-in-themselves. Only acts of heart and mind can endow them with holiness.

 
That is the deep meaning of Moses' blessing to the Israelites: "May it be G-d's will that His presence rests in the work of your hands." G-d does not inhere in things - not in Mount Sinai, not in the tablets, not in the Tabernacle. His presence (the word Shekhinah, Divine presence, comes from the same root as Mishkan, sanctuary or tabernacle) lives in "the work of our hands" - whatever we do in accordance with His will. There was nothing grand about the tabernacle. It was small, fragile, portable. What made it holy was one thing only, that the Israelites "had made it just as the Lord had commanded". The simplest human act, if done for the sake of G-d, has more sanctity than the holiest of holy objects. That, to me, is a remarkable principle of faith.
 
3/11/10 10:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
RoninBT
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/11/10 10:41 PM
Member Since: 12/9/05
Posts: 33
;-)
3/11/10 10:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
RoninBT
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/9/05
Posts: 34
770mdm - <p>I guess the idea that the Synagogue coming before the ekklaisia has no barring here :-(</p>


The ekklaisia makes its first appearance in the Tanak not the New Testament. Of coarse you have to look for it in the Septuagint. This word study may lead some to conclude that the called out assembly / qahal / congregation / edah / church / ekklaisia began some 1500 years before the NT.
3/12/10 9:13 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1268
ekklaisia:  I can't particularly tell but was this a Greek word used to translate a Hebrew word in the Septuigant?  I think the Hebrew word being Quf Hey Lamed, Qahel?  Meaning audience?  If so I'd say this then was originally a Hebrew concept, a Jewish concept, not a Christian one.  The word Qahel is in all books of the Torah and Tenach.  Especially if it's in Tenach before Chist and Christianity.  Anyway, very interesting!  Tell me more-
3/13/10 3:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/13/10 3:51 PM
Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1174
The point was, why did Jesus choose this word to represent his church? He could have used sunagoge, thiasos, eranos. But he chose ekklesia. Which the correct interpretation means political assembly.


Jesus could have chosen other words to describe such a gathering with no politcal connection. Instead he chose a word to parallel that of the political government.
3/14/10 2:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
RoninBT
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/14/10 2:43 PM
Member Since: 12/9/05
Posts: 36
.
3/14/10 2:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
RoninBT
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/14/10 2:52 PM
Member Since: 12/9/05
Posts: 37
770:
I can't particularly tell but was this a Greek word used to translate a Hebrew word in the Septuigant? I think the Hebrew word being Quf Hey Lamed, Qahel?

Me:
Yes.
The Hebrew word Qahal (strongs # 6951) is translated as both synagogue and ekklesia in the Septuigant. Examples:

In Deu 31:30 Qahal is translated as ekklesia in the Greek, assembly in English.
NASB
Deu 31:30 Then MosesH4872 spokeH1696 in the hearingH241 of allH3605 the assemblyH6951 of IsraelH3478 the wordsH1697 of thisH2088 songH7892b, untilH5704 they were completeH8552:


In Exd 12:6 Qahal is translated as synagogue in the Greek, assembly in English.
NASB
Exo 12:6 'You shall keepH1961 H4931 it untilH5704 the fourteenthH702 H6240 dayH3117 of the sameH2088 monthH2320, then the wholeH3605 assemblyH6951 of the congregationH5712 of IsraelH3478 is to killH7819 it at twilightH6153.


H6951
qahal
kaw-hawl
From H6950; assemblage (usually concretely): - assembly, company, congregation, multitude.

770:
If so I'd say this then was originally a Hebrew concept, a Jewish concept, not a Christian one.

Me:
I would say it is a Divine concept. I would also add that G-d has had one plan for mankind, not one for the Jew and another for the Gentile. He has one people, the Qahal, who are not determined by physical seed but spiritual. Each of us have the opportunity to accept the covenant. Don't get me wrong, the physical seed of Abraham have a great calling with great responsibility.
I know, that last sentence sounds like a line from Spider-man. By the way I hear he frequents the Western Wall.
3/15/10 10:35 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1270
RoninBT: I would say it is a Divine concept.
Me:  Agreed

RoninBT:  I would also add that G-d has had one plan for mankind, not one for the Jew and another for the Gentile.
Me: I would agree that G-d ultimately loves us all and all of his creations so in that sense he doesn't have one plan for Jews and another for humanity.  I think Christians see the Decalogue as a progressive concept to the 7 Laws given to Noah by G-d.  Jewish understanding is the idea that those 7 laws are the laws for the nations of the world and the Decalogue are laws for the Israelite community.  But if one were to be Righteous, and there are celebrations of righteousness in the Torah/Tenach of people who weren't part of the Israelite community.  They are celebrated too you would see there is a celebration not just between good and bad, and there is understanding of good and bad in the Bible, but righteous and righteousness as good and better then good. 

I wonder... thinking as I type, when someone becomes an American Citizen they don't cease from being Spanish or African or Russian etc...  But they do become American.  Would you call that a spiritual calling?   

3/15/10 12:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
the rooster
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 17714
Hi toelocku. Been very busy. I guess I should clarify how the Lord speaks by impression. I know Jeremiah says our hearts are wicked and evil and who can know it. That is the carnal man and the carnal heart is emotional and if we "follow our heart" we can deceive ourselves.

What I mean by God talking to us beside His words (through creation, audibly and by impression) was that confirmation of God's word to our conscious.

So for instance, I have prayed before about a job and gotten an "impression" or a feeling that did not conflict with God's word.

God's word is the ultimate arbitrator so if I said, "I feel like hurting someone and believe God has laid that impression on my heart" I'd be full of crap.

But one time, before I was a Christian, I had gotten in a big fight and I was getting advice about how to mete out some personal vengence. I heard God audibly in my "brain" or in my thoughts say, "if you live by the sword, you will die by the sword," and then a feeling, an impression that if I sought vengence, I would ultimately die violently, looking over my shoulders.

I believe that was God's voice and impression, consistent with the scriptures (before I knew them) moving on me by His word to deter me from seeking violence and warning me of my end if I sought venegenece.


Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.