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JKD UnderGround >> Empty Hands versus Shocknife


3/15/10 2:54 AM
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Burton
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Testing my Battlefield Kali Knife Defense. This is the best substitute for testing your skills against a live blade. Through tons of sparring, you can develop the ability to move in, block the knife arm, control the knife arm, and work for a disarm.
3/18/10 10:48 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Hey Burton Joe here, first thanks for the vid.

I do agree you have to get control of the arm, how and when you get it is the dangerous part. I think the demonstration is good, and you did a good job but incomplete. In my experience you might get that arm 1 out of 5-6 times depending on a variety of circumstance and it's mostly pure luck to boot Anyway the % is extremely low. I think this should be known right up front so the srmchair folk and others don't think just because they know what to do, doesn't mean they can do it, most of the time it's gonna be bloody.
Pretty good vid thanks bro.
3/18/10 2:08 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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It's going to be bloody, it always is... But that's why tactics like this such as STAB and the like always deal with the idea, 'Hey, you've been stabbed, now go!'
3/18/10 4:38 PM
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shen
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Edited: 03/18/10 4:39 PM
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Awesome, love it!

Just to nitpick...

The only "weakness" IME is a group-think mindset tends to creep in during situations like this wherein all the people involved are all students of the same "way". Everyone is a student of the "X-approach" and everyone wants the "X-Approach" to work, so people sort of help it work even subconsciously. Even when one guy is playing "the bad guy", still ultimately he is on the side of believing in the "X-approach" and wants to see it prevail.

So I think to keep this kind of training as honest as possible it is good to ALSO try it with non-believers wielding the knife; people who are NOT your students, nor friends and who frankly want to make you look bad.

But, that is a minor point, great training!
3/18/10 11:38 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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I think that the guy with this knife in this case is the exact opposite of being a good Uke.

He's trying to do all the things that can make the 2-1 knife defense much harder: 1) Trying to switch hands 2) Avoiding the point disarm 3) Keeping the hips back.
3/19/10 9:31 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Edited: 03/19/10 9:32 AM
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In this scene, Burton is the aggressor and the guy with the knife is passive and potentially a threat, perhaps a warning to not advance. For more scientific evidence you would need hundreds if not thousands of examples with different opponents giving a variety of energy.
Perhaps a big mean man who is committed with bad intentions and who has done the deed before.


Anyway a few more examples to get an honest base % would be needed.
3/20/10 4:59 AM
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Burton
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I (and my students) do this all the time and we get very good results with the new approach and training. This is not just one isolated event. I just taped this one because I was going with the shocknife and the stakes were higher. Of course, we all get cut, and yes, we expect to be cut. But, we have gotten it to where we can do a pretty good job of keeping the blade off of vital areas while getting in to secure the knife arm. And when you are in that situation, you have to be the aggressor to get any advantage.

In the example, if you watch carefully, as I move in (trying to preempt his movement forward) my partner slashes twice and thrusts as he is trying to move. He is actually being very aggressive as he sidesteps, but because I entered deep (a BIG key), I was able to smother those shots. Believe me, he was going 100%. For us, we show a partner respect by NOT going light.
3/20/10 5:26 AM
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walkerl
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Hey guys. I'm one of Burton's students so obviously I'm a fan of this defense. However, as Burton said, "Of course, we all get cut," and the most important thing to realize is that going empty hand vs a knife is the LAST thing you want to do. First thing is run. But assuming you can't run or get an equalizer or anything else, this is the best option. Obviously if the opponent slashes, or thrusts high, then you have to alter your entry, but ultimately the goal is to get a 2 on 1. When we drill this, we do so with varying degrees of resistance. Sometimes the "bad guy" goes 50% but ultimately lets you get the knife (when learning you have to go slow), other times they go all out. But it takes a LOT of training to get somewhat good at this. As Joe mentioned, just knowing the technique is worthless. You have to practice it against resisting partners and even then it's really tough.

Yes it's really hard and yes most times you get cut, but ultimately this gives you the best odds of dealing with a knife. You HAVE to go in (at the right time), you HAVE to be committed, and you HAVE to get 2 on 1. Anything else and you're going to get diced.

3/29/11 1:11 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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To me this is a waste of valuble and for most, limited training time. You only have so many hours in the day. To try and acquire "skill" against the blade is very, very low transfer to real world application. You can not train against ambush, you can not prevent someone who is sweaty and angry or crazy from stabbing you. Period. Spend your time doing what you can do with a knife at 100% (potentially) aliveness. I've already outlined what I think this training is.

Now, if you want to do it for 'fun', sure. If you're an RBSD guy and you want to impress people, sure. But do not kid yourself that this is going to EVER help you. You're better off doing a lot of other things, including prevention, evasion, avoidance, practice with tazers or OC or with a handgun (see Crafty's DLO vid).


3/30/11 6:09 PM
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Burton
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 My military student who actually used his training against a knife didn't think it was a waste of time.

And any LEO will tell you that inside a certain distance, pepper spray, tazer, and handgun are useless. I would rather have them well-prepared. 
3/30/11 6:09 PM
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Burton
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Edited: 03/30/11 6:10 PM
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triple post
3/30/11 6:09 PM
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Burton
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Edited: 03/30/11 6:09 PM
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triple post
3/30/11 6:09 PM
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Burton
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Edited: 03/30/11 6:10 PM
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 Make that quadruple.
3/30/11 7:10 PM
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gutterfighter
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' Spend your time doing what you can do with a knife at 100% (potentially) aliveness. I've already outlined what I think this training is.'

WidespreadPanic, Where is your post?
3/30/11 10:32 PM
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markijkd
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Nice Job Burt!

I remember our mutual friend George Tony would always tell me "address the choke or it will address you". Well, same goes for the blade!

M...
3/31/11 4:26 AM
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John Frankl
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Uhm. I may be sleep deprived, but I see no correlation between the Roy Harris gig and the Ueshiba hocus pocus.

Also, please report the results of the Harris approach. How many friends? How friendly? Immediately when you are all ready, or any time?

You really haven't told us anything.
4/3/11 4:50 AM
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John Frankl
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Thanks, you just gave me insomnia:) I hear ninjas outside my door...

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