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UnderGround Forums >> all this talk about D1 wrestlers dominating MMA


3/16/10 1:22 AM
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worldfightfan
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if that is the case, that wrestling is so bad ass because of the superior athletes and tough training .... well I guess we better start looking to other countries for the best MMA stars because America stunk it up at the Olympics. Looks like a bunch of Russians, Eastern Europeans, Cubans, ect.. pretty much mop the floor with US wrestlers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer08/results?discId=50
3/16/10 1:28 AM
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Gullivers Travels
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you seem to resent wrestlers. Obviously if you are unwilling to/cannot learn other technique then you won't succeed. But wrestling allows you to dictate where the fight goes, ground control, and the training mentality that is essential to mma. I think it's by far the best base to start with and if those wrestlers decide to get into mma, they have a good start. But it's obvious from other great wrestlers in the past that wrestling alone won't get you to the top.
3/16/10 1:28 AM
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Permy Vitor
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I'd want to get involved if I were a top wrestler. Imagine being able to get Brock on his back. You = New UFC Champ.
3/16/10 1:28 AM
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workman43113
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They will probably be good to. I think peoples were only pointing out that high level wrestling internationally as well as domestically will continue to be the most dominant base martial art especially in the future when more top level guys make the leap
3/16/10 1:40 AM
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nostripewhite
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Being french Canadian and having low bodyfat will always trump international wrestling.
3/16/10 1:43 AM
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MickColins
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Edited: 03/16/10 1:44 AM
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Gullivers Travels - you seem to resent wrestlers.  
I think the gentleman resents the recent american wrestling trolls. On a side note, one of the wrestling trolls constant refrains is that american wrestlers are superior athletes than other fighters. Which I find strange since most of the big,athletic dudes in my high school played basketball and football. My college had no wrestling program, so I can't say what's what about that. Now, I know college wrestler's have amazing endurance and work ethic but I don't know about the superiority in athletic prowess between them and other MMA fighters.
  
3/16/10 1:43 AM
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worldfightfan
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I think a bunch of guys in America think they are superior because they wrestled and think that the best athlete is the wrestler. But what they probably don't want to hear that US wrestling is a zero in the world of international wrestling so their idea of their favorite star from Iowa State, ect... tearing up everyone doesn't add up if a guy from Kazhakistan or Armenia can beat the living hell out of their favorite D1 wrestler.

So that's fine if you say wrestling is the best sport for MMA and you have your reasons, just realize that US wrestling is down the list so the next stars awaiting discovery probably reside in countries you can't even pronounce.
3/16/10 1:55 AM
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ajl416az
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Edited: 03/16/10 1:55 AM
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folkstyle is more relevant for mma then the olympic styles
3/16/10 1:59 AM
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humphrey sphinctermuscle
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i don't think it's a superiority issue with athletes, I just think it's common sense that a wrestling base is the ideal place to start.

As for Olympics? MMA is MIXED martial arts. you don't have to be an Olympic level wrestler to be very good at it, and learn to take what you need from it, and utilize that over a broad range of skills.

this entire thread makes absolutely no sense.
3/16/10 2:06 AM
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judom
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As I follow international wrestling, I should probably comment.

Currently, despite the hype, MMA is not popular AT ALL in the circles of olympic wrestling or judo, at least in Eastern Europe or Russia. That is a fact.

Most athletes that are good are well-paid with a coaching position and other perks waiting and they compete and train all the time. There is simply no time for MMA. MMA, is still mostly an entertainment, not a serious sport, as it is not an olympic sport and the government does not fund such programs the way it does with other sports like judo or wrestling. So that is why in the near future you will not see a rush of these athletes to MMA.

As far as world wrestling level, U.S. is not in the same league as Russia. I am not sure what D-1 really is, but I'd say U.S. is currently a mid-tier wrestling country, several levels below Russia.
3/16/10 2:09 AM
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humphrey sphinctermuscle
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Edited: 03/16/10 2:08 AM
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so it's government funding that establishes something as a sport?

Football (NFL) isn't a sport then?
3/16/10 2:10 AM
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inoshishi07
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ajl416az - folkstyle is more relevant for mma then the olympic styles


This! Control vs exposing the back...
3/16/10 2:22 AM
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uglee
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The emphasis that folkstyle has on mat wrestling is IMHO one of the major advantages D1 (DIVISON 1 THE HIGHEST LEVAL for those who don't know) wrestlers have coming into MMA and over any international competitors. Now I know that someone will no doubt referance Randy or Lindland as top leval Greco guys, but in truth they both spent probale as much time in folkstyle as Greco if not more. Also I don't nessarily believe that it is the sport of wrestling as much as it is the type of traning and the leval of intensity and mental toughness that makes these guys such badass.If some bjj schools started doing advanced competition classes for kids and adults with simaler approach then they too would have the same edge as wrestlers now posseas. So there is an argument that Folkstyle is the best base and not wrestling in genrail. There is also the argument that it is traning methods and not base sport which matter most.
3/16/10 2:29 AM
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droc
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Gullivers Travels - you seem to resent wrestlers. Obviously if you are unwilling to/cannot learn other technique then you won't succeed. But wrestling allows you to dictate where the fight goes, ground control, and the training mentality that is essential to mma. I think it's by far the best base to start with and if those wrestlers decide to get into mma, they have a good start. But it's obvious from other great wrestlers in the past that wrestling alone won't get you to the top.

 Great post, you have succinctly pointed out the greatest advantages of wrestling in MMA, while acknowledging the sport's weaknesses.

DROC
3/16/10 2:40 AM
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GladiatorGannon
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judom - As I follow international wrestling, I should probably comment.

Currently, despite the hype, MMA is not popular AT ALL in the circles of olympic wrestling or judo, at least in Eastern Europe or Russia. That is a fact.

Most athletes that are good are well-paid with a coaching position and other perks waiting and they compete and train all the time. There is simply no time for MMA. MMA, is still mostly an entertainment, not a serious sport, as it is not an olympic sport and the government does not fund such programs the way it does with other sports like judo or wrestling. So that is why in the near future you will not see a rush of these athletes to MMA.

As far as world wrestling level, U.S. is not in the same league as Russia. I am not sure what D-1 really is, but I'd say U.S. is currently a mid-tier wrestling country, several levels below Russia.


American may only be a mid tier wrestling country on the internstional scene, but we're completely dominant in the kind of wrestling that has worked best for MMA - American Folkstyle.
3/16/10 2:42 AM
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Winston Wolf
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inoshishi07 - 
ajl416az - folkstyle is more relevant for mma then the olympic styles


This! Control vs exposing the back...

bullshit and all freestylers and greco also are good at folk
3/16/10 6:14 AM
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Diego stole my name
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"American may only be a mid tier wrestling country on the internstional scene, but we're completely dominant in the kind of wrestling that has worked best for MMA - American Folkstyle."

The best wrestler in MMA trains freestyle
3/16/10 6:38 AM
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HaMMerHouseFAN
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Winston Wolf - 
inoshishi07 - 
ajl416az - folkstyle is more relevant for mma then the olympic styles


This! Control vs exposing the back...

bullshit and all freestylers and greco also are good at folk


Just about to post this. VTFU
3/16/10 6:48 AM
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frontrowbrian
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HaMMerHouseFAN - 
Winston Wolf - 
inoshishi07 - 
ajl416az - folkstyle is more relevant for mma then the olympic styles


This! Control vs exposing the back...

bullshit and all freestylers and greco also are good at folk


Just about to post this. VTFU
It seems folkstyle to freestyle is relatively easy transition. If you're good at one, you'll be good at the other.

However, with Greco, I can think of some examples where a wrestler turns out be excellent at Greco yet wasn't excellent at Folk.

A few names that jump to mind... Dan Henderson was never an All American at Cal St Fullerton or Arizona State yet become a 2 time Greco Olympian.

Matt Lindland wasn't outstanding while at Nebraska (1x AA). Neither was another Nebraska wrestler, Rulon Gardner (1X AA), who beat the most famous wrestler to ever live in 2000 in Greco.

Joe Warren made All America once. Got knocked out of the NCAA's early 2 other times yet he won a World Championship in Greco.

2008 Greco Olympian Jake Deitchler who made headlines by making the Olympic squard as a high schooler can't even crack the starting line up at Minnesota
3/16/10 7:20 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 03/16/10 7:25 AM
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Again, as others say: Folkstyle is the reason we see great fighting wrestlers from the USA and only the USA.

Folkstyle emphasizes control and dominance, over Freestyles risk and explosiveness.

However, there's a huge difference between Greco and Folkstyle.

Again, think back: Name a non US wrestler who's been great at MMA and remember that Japan's wrestling is deeply influenced by American folkstyle after WW2.

The Janitor wrestled in College in the states...

So that leaves... No one.
3/16/10 8:15 AM
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Winston Wolf
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frontrowbrian - 
HaMMerHouseFAN - 
Winston Wolf - 
inoshishi07 - 
ajl416az - folkstyle is more relevant for mma then the olympic styles


This! Control vs exposing the back...

bullshit and all freestylers and greco also are good at folk


Just about to post this. VTFU
It seems folkstyle to freestyle is relatively easy transition. If you're good at one, you'll be good at the other.

However, with Greco, I can think of some examples where a wrestler turns out be excellent at Greco yet wasn't excellent at Folk.

A few names that jump to mind... Dan Henderson was never an All American at Cal St Fullerton or Arizona State yet become a 2 time Greco Olympian.

Matt Lindland wasn't outstanding while at Nebraska (1x AA). Neither was another Nebraska wrestler, Rulon Gardner (1X AA), who beat the most famous wrestler to ever live in 2000 in Greco.

Joe Warren made All America once. Got knocked out of the NCAA's early 2 other times yet he won a World Championship in Greco.

2008 Greco Olympian Jake Deitchler who made headlines by making the Olympic squard as a high schooler can't even crack the starting line up at Minnesota

are u kidding me ? anyone who starts for a Nebraska or D1 is an excellent wrestler U dont have to win the NCAAs to be an excedllent wrestler.Lindland was the odds on favorite to win the NCAAs his senior year but was upset first round of NCAA tourney U man because he lost that one match he wasnt that good at folk ?Kai u name me the freestyler and then u check their folkstyle record.Sanderson NCAA champ also Olympic freestyle champ.When did Vlady wrestle in the USA in college What school ?99.9 greco guys also have wrestled free and folk Not a huge difference between free and folk The rules and points are the same except greco is upper body Gaurenteed every greco guy has done free and folk.U can not say folk emphisizes control and freeexplosiveness It dependssoley on the wrestlers style in both styles.99.9 Olypic greco guys and 99.9 freestyle Olympic guys did well in folk.Look at the American gold medalists SandersonmJohn Smith ,Monday,Jackson,Weaver,Cross etc they are were excellent in college
3/16/10 8:23 AM
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frontrowbrian
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Edited: 03/16/10 8:25 AM
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 Vlady wrestled for University of Nevada at Reno. He won a JUCO National title prior to that.

My point was Folkstyle and Greco. There are many OUTSTANDING Greco wrestlers who were just very good folk wrestlers. Hendo, Lindland, Gardner. Big difference between outstanding and very good.

I'm not disputing that if you're good at folk, there's a good chance you're good at freestyle. What I'm saying is you can be a very good folk wrestler and parlay that into being an Olympic world class Greco wrestler. You can't be simply very good in folk and then become world class Olympic level in freestyle. Folk and freestyle are too alike.

Folk and Greco.. obviously very much not a like and that's why you see simply very good folk wrestlers be able to transform into Olympic/World medalists in Greco (Lindland, Gardner, Warren, I'm sure there's others)    
3/16/10 8:25 AM
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WoodenPupa
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ttt
3/16/10 8:28 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Lindland was ranked #1 all year his senior year and was awesome He losses one match and hes not that good.He was also great in HS
3/16/10 8:32 AM
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Diego stole my name
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"Again, think back: Name a non US wrestler who's been great at MMA and remember that Japan's wrestling is deeply influenced by American folkstyle after WW2."

Georges St. Pierre


In order to claim folkstyle has been more successfull in MMA, you would need to draw examples from similar sized talentpools. Wich does not exist since only a handful of freestyle wrestlers have actually bothered to compete in MMA


If 1000 folkstyle wrestlers compete in MMA compared to 20 freestyle wrestlers, then statistically no shit that folkstyle has been more successfull. The numbers are skewed



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