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JKD UnderGround >> Gun defense vs Knife


3/20/10 8:58 PM
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Joe Maffei
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I get a lot of shit from gun guys. Some believe that if they are “carrying” they don’t need any other training. Here is a shot vid to a response from some forum comments.

Vid below.
3/20/10 8:59 PM
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Joe Maffei
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www.youtube.com/watch 
3/21/10 9:18 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Joe Maffei - I get a lot of shit from gun guys. Some believe that if they are “carrying” they don’t need any other training. Here is a shot vid to a response from some forum comments.

Vid below.
Almost -all- gun guys will try to draw and point before they have 'control' over the situation and adequate space/distance to put sights on target and end up getting "killed". Many, can't even 'unlearn' this bad habit, particularly LEOs.

 
3/21/10 9:23 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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 Also, never forget your gun is also a 'club'. If you pull and the guy is still too close, hit him in the head with the gun. Then get distance and draw a bead.

3/22/10 12:23 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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What most gun types for get is that it's gonna be a "fight"!
3/22/10 4:36 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 03/22/10 11:50 PM
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Worse comes to worse where you have to draw and shoot but can't create distance or place cover between you and them?

Drop to guard and draw at the same time.

Practice vs an aluminum knife using an airsoft pistol.

You'll have to be careful of stabs and slashes to your balls or femoral artery, and also for shooting your own feet off, but with force on force training, you can get real good at Center of Mass shots or even face shots.
3/29/11 12:56 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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 ^Rather than drop to guard, how about drop to a kneeling stance? You're more stable and it's kinda hard to stab someone who is only 3 feet tall. It's a kind of temporary target denial for a knife.

In addition, you can still be mobile quickly, unlike dropping to guard.

Like the idea of using an airsoft vs a wooden/duct tape knife trainer. (Uh, no to aluminum. You can still get hurt. A duct tape and foam knife can still indicate a 'hit'.)


3/30/11 11:25 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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3/31/11 4:30 AM
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John Frankl
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I like my chances in guard better than kneeling. More distance, more time, two big feet between the knife and my gun.

When I think of someone who is 3 feet tall, I think he probably gets stabbed in the face rather than in the gut, but stabbed just the same. No change in distance or barriers.
3/31/11 9:10 AM
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Joe Maffei
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What would you do if no weapons were in play and it was an MMA bout and someone bum rushed you in the same manner?

1.Drop to 1 knee?
2.Fall to guard?

If you dropped to 1 knee you would get blown over, if you went to guard you would get pounded or your guard would get passed, what makes you think this would not happen just because you are holstering a gun?

While you are fumbling around trying to draw you weapon you would catch the worst.

No!! What you would do is cover up, while getting stabbed and fight for your life using all your empty hand skills to get away while trying to assess your options. It's hard wired into your nervous system to fight or flight, not to think.Darwing your weapon will be an after thought.

Don't get confused you will fight the way you fight regardless of whether the enemy has a knife or not.
4/1/11 4:07 AM
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John Frankl
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Joe,

Interesting, but not sure about two things:

1. Why dropping to guard, minimizing exposure of one's face and vital organs, and upkicking really hard is impossible to train as a response.

2. Why dropping to guard, minimizing exposure of one's face and vital organs, and upkicking really hard is not part of "your empty hand skills to get away while trying to assess your options".

Now I'm not proposing this as some sort of "best option." I am just wondering why you seem to think it is impossible.
4/1/11 11:08 AM
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Joe Maffei
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John I'm not saying it can't be done, what I'm saying is the chances of your conscious thoughts over riding the response of your nervous system is close to impossible.

Your ( NIR ) neurological impulse response is so lightening fast. It will react on it's own way before your conscious mind can think of what option to choose. And the way it will react is by protecting the head (brain) while going into a curved fetal shape, protecting the ribs, lungs, heart and other vital organs. Once this is done the brain allows the conscious mind to choose options, the after thought.

If your after thought is to pull guard....ok i just think it might be a little unrealistic considering all the unknowns...:-(
4/2/11 12:42 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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 Theoretically, if you have a holstered handgun (HG) and you are quickly and suddenly confronted by someone who is either very formidable (bigger/stronger?) and/or who has a weapon like a knife or sharp instrument, and is too close for you to draw your HG, one way to create space and fire your HG is to fall back, quickly draw your weapon, and shoot up.

If the opponent just stands there, and most will do so momentarily, you have created vertical and horizontal space such that you can fire your HG, and the opponent can not really reach you with their knife (or limbs).

The danger point is that you only have a small amt of time, you might sweep/shoot your own leg/foot, the opponent might be able to cut your lower leg if he's very fast and intuits what you're doing. But being in high danger, using a high risk move might be called for.

For other occasions, if you have the HG and the bad guy (BG) comes at you, and you have forward balance, you can use a head and elbow spear into the upper chest/neck area and drive them back. Then a push and you have created enough space.

So forward balance, spear and drive then push off and sidestep and draw.
 Backward balance (or unbalanced), controlled fall to your back as you draw your gun and fire up between your legs (or, if time, quickly turn both knees sideways and fire up)

$0.02


4/2/11 11:14 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Guys we can banter on what options are possible or best " what we could do " all day.
I'm saying what "will" happen. I'm not talking theoretically either, it's factual. And this is not just my opinion. What I am saying is based on thousands of documented cases by military research and Law Enforcement.

We can't pre-determine what the best option is because we will not know that until the options present themselves at the exact moment of decision. So trying to think of what you would do or what would be best in an un-determinable situation is a waist of time.

All we can do is base our plan on what we know for sure and that is. During confusion and stress the body unconsciously and momentarily moves into the fetal position or similar to. This is what my Quick Draw system was based on, this research. That later if interested..:-)

It's all human reaction. Kinda getting off topic for one moment..:-) MMA is so important to train because it represents gross motor skills that abide by physics according to the laws of leverage, time, space, gravity, distance etc and the anatomy of the human body, all fights generally look the same, ( you punch, kick, hold on , fall down, roll around, get up and start over) with exceptions to fine motor skill maneuvers.

My point is by participating, observing and documenting the actual event (life threatening situations) as it unfolds gives you basis for future planning. This has been done for us with the likes of Colonel Rex Applegate U.S. Army Retired, Jimmy Cirillo NYPD retired , and my associate LT Mike Conti Mass Stare Police Firearms trainer.

If you are really interested in RBSD you would need to research these experts as I did.
4/3/11 4:36 AM
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John Frankl
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"My point is by participating, observing and documenting the actual event (life threatening situations) as it unfolds gives you basis for future planning. This has been done for us with the likes of Colonel Rex Applegate U.S. Army Retired, Jimmy Cirillo NYPD retired , and my associate LT Mike Conti Mass Stare Police Firearms trainer.

If you are really interested in RBSD you would need to research these experts as I did."

Totally agree, Joe. But researching what people did WITHOUT a certain kind of training does not mean that kind of training won't work/produce different/better results.

Just for one concrete example, you might also have researched a bunch of "no-rules" type fights prior to the UFC only to conclude that it would be impractical to try to finish a fight with a choke or armbar. That is exactly what your research would show. But then Royce comes along and....
4/3/11 9:41 AM
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Joe Maffei
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"Totally agree, Joe. But researching what people did WITHOUT a certain kind of training does not mean that kind of training won't work/produce different/better results."

Ahhhh but the research was evaluating people WITH a
"certain type of training". The service men were trained in the use of firearms and the use of firearms in battle. How to aim, correct posture, proper position etc John you know this. many many hr in the field prepping.
The research found with all the time spent training the solders was, when the fighting began no matter how much time was put in the correct and proper training, the human response (hard wired into the brain) took over and the solders did not respond as they were trained to do.

John I liked your analogy with Royce, but what happened when he fought Matt Hughes and things went all wrong and he started to panic and stress? He gave Matt his back and covered up in the fetal position the best he could.

Now shows that even a man as well trained as Royce is no match for the un-conscious mind.
4/3/11 1:01 PM
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John Frankl
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Interesting, Joe.

I have not seen the actual research that you have, so I will simply defer to your judgment on the cases you mention above. No problem there.

But, more generally, I have trained standard LEO, FBI, and currently train members of the US Special Forces Group Korea. The standard training these guys get runs from good to okay, but they don't practice much, if at all, after they receive the training. Many of them are out of shape. Many drink and smoke. Many of them, even when the government is paying for them to train for free, don't train unless forced to by those above, which often doesn't happen. So, in general terms, I question the conclusion that proper training will all go to hell in a high stress situation, simply because I don't see many of these guys getting what I consider "proper training."

As for Royce vs. Matt Hughes. Royce trained at Fairtex. Royce tried to "kickbox." Royce gave his back going for some really sloppy striking--something he wasn't very good at and hadn't trained adequately. And then Royce got beaten by better jiu jitsu. No real mysteries there.
4/4/11 8:53 AM
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Joe Maffei
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John I'm enjoying the talk, hey!! you picked Royce not me LOL...
Doesn't have to be Royce, :-) pick anyone in the UFC and see what he does when he's getting the shit kicked out of him, same reaction that's why I love MMA there's no lies.

As far as Mil/LEO's are concerned it's the same every John, to bad too, that's why I personally don't care to train them, but I will!!! $$$$$ double LOL. .... .. But in all honesty, I do know some very well trained and inspired guys in LE and MIL, but they are far and few between the paid Civil Servant.


Professional Instruction + Motivated Individual = Proper Training IMHO
4/4/11 10:58 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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I still say force on force it, airsoft gun and a blade enough to give you a sting.
4/7/11 9:28 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Kai that's a little vague brother..:-)
What do you expect to get resolve?
4/8/11 12:32 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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 One of the things that was a wakeup call for me is Crafy Dog's DLO video.

He had a LEO on the tape and a surprise attack as someone walked by. The LEO put one hand on his gun and backed up. He got killed every time multiple times.

He could NOT unlearn the 'access your gun and draw' response. He was shown how to drive into the guy with a head spear and reset and the SAME thing happened, he went for his holster/draw and backed up and got killed.

Now, he may have been an anomaly, but IMO, guys who wear guns a lot and train with them are not going to understand you must first make distance and not try to draw your gun and start fumbling with it only one hand left (and your 'weak side' as well).

It's almost like the Karate guys back in the 70s and 80s whose response to a street encounter was to raise one leg and threaten a kick, like the Karate Kid.  They could not comprehend that 'dude, you're now standing on one leg' idea. Now, we know that the best response might be to sprawl, or evade first and there's nothing to be gained by threatening the dreaded 'front kick'.


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