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UnderGround Forums >> Last night refereeing issues??


3/22/10 10:09 AM
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donnybrook
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A couple of things jumped out at me last night watching the show.

First, most rules say that fighters are NOT allowed to call their own timeouts. If Paul Buentello turned away holding his hand, cried out in pain, and stopped fighting, shouldn't that fight have been called? Nothing foul happened. It looked like a Paul dislocated his finger in the normal course of action, stopped the fight on his own, had it reset, then was allowed to continue. If a guy gets his nose broken, can he signal a stoppage, fix, it and continue?

Second, when Jon Jones got illegally upkicked in the face, why was he asked if he wanted to return to the position. Rules usually dictate the standups in that if a fighter is in a dominant position and gets fouled he will be returned to that position, otherwise it goes back to the feet. It is not the fighters option, it is the referees discretion where the fight restarts. Also, he was returned to guard, and that was not the position they were in (technically it is impossible to upkick an opponent in the face from the guard position, you must break the position and bring your leg over to do it)

If anyone has any thought, feel free to comment. I am an experienced referee and, in the spirit of always improving, I'd like to hear some opinions.

Kevin
3/22/10 10:11 AM
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midwestbred
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Good thing you didn't watch DREAM
3/22/10 10:24 AM
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MakeMeBleed
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 they were good calls IMO
3/22/10 10:39 AM
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dentalninja
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In the end, everything turned out okay...but I tend to agree with your post.
3/22/10 10:42 AM
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Mike Sanders
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I actually thought Paul was saying he had a problem with his glove when he motioned to the referee. If his finger was hurt it makes zero sense to let him have it attended to during the round at his own discretion
3/22/10 10:42 AM
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DiegoGaggedOnBJ
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 I didn't see any of the fights but I was wondering what was up with the Buentello fight just reading the play by play.

It said something like "Herb Dean pauses the action and indicates that there was no foul" then why did he pause the action?
3/22/10 10:52 AM
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ausgepicht
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By all appearances Paul's pink got crammed INTO the glove....it was "equipment failure" along the lines of having a mouthpiece knocked out and needing to be cleaned and placed back in. See no problem with it.

"Smoking" Herb Dean's asking if Jones wanted to go back down needs some clarification though.

3/22/10 10:52 AM
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Xad
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Herb acknowledged that he misunderstood what happened, when the docs were in the corner Herb was talking to the commission guy behind the cage (commission i think?) and he stated he "thought it was the equipment", so that's why he told Buentello and the Docs "you have to do it right now or you guys are out" and within two seconds or so the Doc managed to pull the pinky to fix it.

Seems like Herb called a timeout because he thought it was an equipment malfunction and when he realised it wasn't, he allowed the docs a second or two (and went to explain the situation to the commission), by then the issue was resolved.
3/22/10 11:01 AM
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Mike Sanders
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Thanks to the people who clarified, that makes sense then

"Herb Green" though IMO ;)
3/22/10 11:18 AM
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ShocknAwe
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I thought Josh Rosenthal did a killer job last night
3/22/10 11:38 AM
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canuck34
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The Buentello fight should have been stopped but I'm glad they give the refs some license to interpret situations.

With Buentello it was a dislocated finger. I'm sure even Kongo wouldn't have wanted to win that way.

With Irvin he got messed up by a clean punch. Good stoppage.

I also liked how Herb made Buentello fight after putting his hand down on purpose to avoid the knees.

3/22/10 11:45 AM
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Boldar
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From a fan perspective I'm glad both things happened because we a) got see Kongo & Paul continue to go at it and b) I think the offended fighter should get the choice of where the fight goes after a foul (i.e. original position or standing).
3/22/10 11:47 AM
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ausgepicht
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canuck34 - The Buentello fight should have been stopped but I'm glad they give the refs some license to interpret situations.

With Buentello it was a dislocated finger. I'm sure even Kongo wouldn't have wanted to win that way.
He may or may not have dislocated his finger, but the issue was the equipment. It appeared that way to all of us because you could barely see his finger poking out. Herb said as much when they were in the corner as well. You could see people trying to pull his pinky out of the glove AND possibly relocating it. I'd like to hear Paul tell us if it was BOTH dislocation and equipment...or the dislocation made it so he couldn't make a fist because it was inside the glove/

As I mentioned, if it was a mouthpiece Herb would have brought it to the corner and had it washed out, or tape peeling off would have been scissored and got back to the fight ASAP...Herb even told him he had to make a decision quickly.
 
3/22/10 11:58 AM
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canuck34
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canuck34 - The Buentello fight should have been stopped but I'm glad they give the refs some license to interpret situations.

With Buentello it was a dislocated finger. I'm sure even Kongo wouldn't have wanted to win that way.
He may or may not have dislocated his finger, but the issue was the equipment. It appeared that way to all of us because you could barely see his finger poking out. Herb said as much when they were in the corner as well. You could see people trying to pull his pinky out of the glove AND possibly relocating it. I'd like to hear Paul tell us if it was BOTH dislocation and equipment...or the dislocation made it so he couldn't make a fist because it was inside the glove/

As I mentioned, if it was a mouthpiece Herb would have brought it to the corner and had it washed out, or tape peeling off would have been scissored and got back to the fight ASAP...Herb even told him he had to make a decision quickly.
 


Yeah, it was hard to tell. I thought it looked like he threw a punch and his finger bent outward.
3/22/10 12:23 PM
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Sam Sheridan
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"Rosie" Rosenthal best ref in the business
3/22/10 12:25 PM
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ausgepicht
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I'm rewatching the fight right now. Gonna see if I can catch something.
3/22/10 12:29 PM
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Uncle Justice
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 I'm extremely curious on Herb's inquiry to Jones whether he "wanted his position back or not".

I thought the unique situations with Buentello (glove/pinky and putting his hand down to make the knees illegal) and Irvin were handled phenomenally.  That's the way it should be, IMO.

3/22/10 12:32 PM
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Kimura606
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donnybrook - A couple of things jumped out at me last night watching the show.

First, most rules say that fighters are NOT allowed to call their own timeouts. If Paul Buentello turned away holding his hand, cried out in pain, and stopped fighting, shouldn't that fight have been called? Nothing foul happened. It looked like a Paul dislocated his finger in the normal course of action, stopped the fight on his own, had it reset, then was allowed to continue. If a guy gets his nose broken, can he signal a stoppage, fix, it and continue?

Second, when Jon Jones got illegally upkicked in the face, why was he asked if he wanted to return to the position. Rules usually dictate the standups in that if a fighter is in a dominant position and gets fouled he will be returned to that position, otherwise it goes back to the feet. It is not the fighters option, it is the referees discretion where the fight restarts. Also, he was returned to guard, and that was not the position they were in (technically it is impossible to upkick an opponent in the face from the guard position, you must break the position and bring your leg over to do it)

If anyone has any thought, feel free to comment. I am an experienced referee and, in the spirit of always improving, I'd like to hear some opinions.

Kevin
I think herb did not want to reward the infraction with a stand up (if that was his intention). Giving him the option takes any blame away from referee.  I see this along the same lines as 'playing the game' like herb warned paul b. about.
 
3/22/10 12:57 PM
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JuanTheSwan
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I think herb did not want to reward the infraction with a stand up (if that was his intention). Giving him the option takes any blame away from referee.  I see this along the same lines as 'playing the game' like herb warned paul b. about.
 
i agree fully. if someone upkicks you illegaly and lets say your some what still hurt. why should you go to the feet. right there the opponent is getting an unfair advantage. to have you somewhat hurt and on your feet. similar rules to orgz with rings instead of cages. if the ground game leaves the ring they return it to the center of the ring (or back into the ring) and to the same position. because if the aggressor is doing very well on the ground and he has inferior striking to the fighter on his back (or in guard) if they bring it back to the feet its unfair to the fighter who was doing better on the ground. good call by Herb imo.
3/22/10 12:59 PM
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donnybrook
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I love that, even with all of the hilarious antics we have on this site, we can still have a great discussion. Anyone who has refereed knows first hand how difficult it can be when something "outside the range of normalcy" happens. Thanks for everybody's input.

Kevin
3/22/10 1:12 PM
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ausgepicht
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donnybrook - A couple of things jumped out at me last night watching the show.

First, most rules say that fighters are NOT allowed to call their own timeouts. If Paul Buentello turned away holding his hand, cried out in pain, and stopped fighting, shouldn't that fight have been called? Nothing foul happened. It looked like a Paul dislocated his finger in the normal course of action, stopped the fight on his own, had it reset, then was allowed to continue. If a guy gets his nose broken, can he signal a stoppage, fix, it and continue?
Paul did NOT call a time out, wave the fight or anything like that. He wasn't even looking at the heferee but trying to get his finger fixed. Herb called time out.
3/22/10 1:13 PM
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CageSide
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i dont know why herb was warning kongo for the 12-6 elbows to the glute and thigh, i thought that anything but the head and spine were fair game. curious
3/22/10 1:16 PM
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donnybrook
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The reason I asked was because, I have always felt that, if you are in a dominant clean position(i.e. mount, side mount, guard) and get fouled, you go back to the dominant clean position after recovery. If it is not dominant and/or not clean, it's back to the feet. I can see both sides of the issue. I have just realized over the years that, especially in a ring, trying to restart anything other than a clean position can get messy. Good points all around though!

Kevin
3/22/10 1:26 PM
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donnybrook
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After having worked with the Massachusetts Athletic Commission for the last few weeks getting things together for their first santioned show this Friday, I can speak to the elbow rule.

"Striking downward using the point of the elbow"

The Nevada rules add a (12-6) note in there, but MA took it out because they felt it was not clear what that was.

The way that MA will interpret and enforce this rule is that ANY elbow in which the fist goes to the ceiling(12) and then strikes downward in the direction of the floor(6) is considered a foul, no matter what the target.

I will be conducting a referee training program for MA tomorrow evening and wanted to be crystal clear on the rule before I taught others. I think that the best way to interpret is to think of dropping a ball. The ball will fall downward. Anything other than that should be acceptable. This is also where "referee's discretion" can come into play.

Kevin
3/22/10 1:31 PM
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crowbar
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It`s often overlooked by many of just how much authority a referee has at his discretion.


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